Bow hunter fatally shot in San Juan National Forest

[nrpate05]

Regulating shed hunting is not about safety. It's about resource management. Apples and oranges.

It is about resource management, but that is not really the point. I'm simply saying that the state wildlife agency doesn't have the authority to manage non-consumptive users. Shed hunting is just an example. The legislature could pass a law that would require all users to wear orange, but the state wildlife agency can't.

 

[SaskHunter]

Actually, that is a requirement here. Bird hunters, berry pickers, etc. must wear orange when in the bush during rifle season.

I've enjoyed Crown Land, Private lands, NCC lands, etc, in Ontario and have NEVER seen a blaze orange requirement for those not engaging in hunting activities during a season where blaze orange is required for hunters. Furthermore, waterfowl hunters, for example, are not required to wear blaze orange during a big game season where blaze orange is required.

Stop making shit up.

 

[SaskHunter]

This is a welfare state and the people here generally accept regulations that are intended to look out for their welfare. Making everyone in the bush wear orange during hunting season instead of just the "consumptive" ones with loaded guns seems to make some sense to me.

I find it amusing that the person who crosses the CAN/US border as they please to get the most benefits from both countries accuses Canada of being a welfare state...

Edit: The regs have not changed. All hunters of anything in the woods during rifle season must be orange unless archery for bear in tree stand. As I read it even archery for deer in a tree stand must be orange but that doesn't make sense. Do bears see orange better than deer? So how does a CO know if a camo waterfowl hunter with a shotgun isn't really after deer? Interesting question. Since lead slugs and buckshot are illegal for waterfowl, a check of hunter's ammo might tell the tale. However, I do routinely carry a slug or two in my coat when goose hunting because so many bears are in the area. They hide in the standing corn while I'm shooting birds from the edge. The buggers will stay in it till the last rows are being cut with combine. I haven't bought a bear license in my life. If I ever shoot one, it will be from necessity.

Bruh! Breaking more laws and scared of black bears, I see...

 

[X13]

Around here (PA) the only non-consumptive folks that have to wear orange are those present on State Game Lands between Nov 15 and Dec 15. Doesn't apply to any other public land or any private land.

We also relatively recently removed all orange requirements for bowhunters while still requiring 250 sq. inches for inline muzzleloader seasons and junior/senior rifle seasons. They overlap for about a week in mid-October.

If this occurred here, he'd likely be looking at a misdemeanor of the 1st degree: up to $10k fines, up to 18/mo in jail.

 

[OntarioHunter]

I find it amusing that the person who crosses the CAN/US border as they please to get the most benefits from both countries accuses Canada of being a welfare state...



Bruh! Breaking more laws and scared of black bears, I see...

I don't know why you would think I'm complaining about Canada being a welfare state. Not complaining at all. It's why I'm still here.

I am authorized to destroy bears on the farmer's property. Just have to sign the paperwork and leave the animals lay. They cause havoc in his cornfields. As far as I know the farmer or his agent does not have to wear orange to utilize destruction permitS because technically it's not hunting. Defending myself and my dogs definitely does not constitute hunting, therefore no license required.

 

[S-3 Ranch]

I find it amusing that the person who crosses the CAN/US border as they please to get the most benefits from both countries accuses Canada of being a welfare state...



Bruh! Breaking more laws and scared of black bears, I see...

Canada is a 100% welfare state and has been for a long long time

The ugly truth of Canada's welfare state

Like America and Europe, this putative paragon of human kindness is being led down a nativist path

theweek.com

now don’t get me wrong I love Canada, but it is definitely what it is

Wutang clan rule

 

[SaskHunter]

Canada is a 100% welfare state and has been for a long long time

The ugly truth of Canada's welfare state

Like America and Europe, this putative paragon of human kindness is being led down a nativist path

theweek.com

now don’t get me wrong I love Canada, but it is definitely what it is

Wutang clan rule

I never said it wasn't, I live here so I kind of know a thing or two about the place. My comment is aimed at OntarioHunter who loves to crap on anything and everything.

The average Canadian is happy with the way things are. Watch out, the Northern Commies are coming!

 

[SaskHunter]

I don't know why you would think I'm complaining about Canada being a welfare state. Not complaining at all. It's why I'm still here.

I am authorized to destroy bears on the farmer's property. Just have to sign the paperwork and leave the animals lay. They cause havoc in his cornfields. As far as I know the farmer or his agent does not have to wear orange to utilize destruction permitS because technically it's not hunting. Defending myself and my dogs definitely does not constitute hunting, therefore no license required.

I'm not going to further derail this thread but;

In Ontario, crop damage is absolutely NO reason to shoot big game outside of lawful hunting. There is also no such thing as a "Destruction Permit" and black bear, like most big game animals, are protected against killing for the reasons you have stated. "Causing havoc" on a corn field is far from a valid reason to shoot a bear, that's what crop damage insurance is for. Bears can be trapped and relocated, or hazed.

 

[Jason73]

My buddy was on the S and R crew that brought the deceased gentleman out. He said it was a tough day for all for sure. It's time to make a change to this overlap. What the answer is will take some time for sure.

 

[kwa_bena]

People get shot in the whitetail woods wearing full blaze orange. Blaze orange can help, but it doesn't dig down to the root of the problem. In Minnesota if memory serves me right there's been someone shot off a horse and a running, moving 3 wheeler in the not to distant past. And most Midwestern whitetail firearms hunters are darn near head to toe blaze orange. Most do it because they are afraid of getting misidentified. It's just sad. The thing that amazes me is they can't id a deer from a person, but have no problem hitting them? Not sure if that's dumb luck or what, just seems odd they can hit what they are lined up on but can't id it? We've always wondered in many areas that are wooded, how people can get 4 or 5 shots off at something on a regular basis? No chance in heck a lot of those shots aren't just pointed in the general direction and letting her rip hoping and spraying. Seems inevitable crap happens, but this one seems avoidable.

This! It's why I always make it a point of looking through a pair of binos or other magnified optic. Even a low powered optic like a range finder could have avoided this. Although I never grew up around firearms like many other in the hunting space, I've always had it hammered in my head to never point a gun unless you are prepared to shoot. It's wild how the basic safety protocols are forgotten in an instant.

 

[kwa_bena]

My buddy was on the S and R crew that brought the deceased gentleman out. He said it was a tough day for all for sure. It's time to make a change to this overlap. What the answer is will take some time for sure.

They can easily put the muzzy season sometime in November and possibly December for bull only. Utah does this so I do not see what would cause an issue with people moving it out of the full moon week and right in the middle of archery season

 

[Deleted member 40728]

I’m all for separating the seasons but it won’t keep someone from getting shot again forever. When you have idiots in the woods who blindly fire into the bushes without identifying their target this will happen again.
If the seasons are separated it will just be a muzzleloader hunter shooting another muzzleloader hunter.

Unfortunately I don’t think season structure or blaze orange would have changed the outcome of this. When someone as negligent and incompetent as that hunter is roaming the woods bad things are going to happen. He literally could have shot anyone because he didn’t follow basic principles and rules of hunting.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

My buddy was on the S and R crew that brought the deceased gentleman out. He said it was a tough day for all for sure. It's time to make a change to this overlap. What the answer is will take some time for sure.

They can easily put the muzzy season sometime in November and possibly December for bull only. Utah does this so I do not see what would cause an issue with people moving it out of the full moon week and right in the middle of archery season

I was listening to meateater and Steve made the same stupid, ignorant statements.

Ok... well we don't have a spring bear season (law says no hunting bears march 1 till sept 1, so I guess we just don't hunt bears? Cause you know bear rifle season is Sept 2-30th.

Please in your infinite wisdom explain where we can shift these around, or do we just throw out the entire CO system because some NRs made some bad decisions.

Sheep rifle Sept 7 - Oct 7 (some units are different, no blaze required)
Goat rifle Sept 7 - Oct 7 (some units are different, no blaze required)
Early Deer Rifle Sept 11 -19
Small game hunting... no blaze rifle is a legal method of take for some.

and that's just public land

for private land only there are Deer, Elk, and pronghorn rifle tags from Sept 2 - Jan 31.

So I guess just F-it?

Wait.... how about we just get rid of archery hunting, as that seems to be the issue..

We could move archery season to Nov and Dec... I'm sure CBA would LOVE that idea... I mean why do archery hunters need to be the group that get's to hunt the rut, archery is OTC and generally either-sex, muzzy is limited and bull only. Seems like we would way more elk on the ground...

No... no...you're right too heavy handed.... plus you can't ask an archery hunter to do literally anything...

hmmm....

oh wait... Archers can wear blaze during overlaps.



... so yeah life isn't all ice cream and chachas, accidents happen you can't legislate away reckless behavior, it absolutely sucks that man was shot, but deaths due to hunting are exceedingly rare, the vast majority nationwide are dudes falling out of tree stands (which haven't been banned), in the west they are heart attacks (we don't make you take a stress test before participating), and the firearm deaths that do happen are usually negligent discharges at the truck (do we have a gun ban?). All outdoor activities have some level of risk we average 8ish? deaths a year to avalanches in CO. I lost a couple friends from high school in avalanches, it sucks, I don't think we should ban backcountry skiing.

This is the kinda of knee jerk reactions that leads to the loss of access and opportunity.

So hard NO for me.

 

[Jason73]

I was listening to meateater and Steve made the same stupid, ignorant statements.

Ok... well we don't have a spring bear season (law says no hunting bears march 1 till sept 1, so I guess we just don't hunt bears? Cause you know bear rifle season is Sept 2-30th.

Please in your infinite wisdom explain where we can shift these around, or do we just throw out the entire CO system because some NRs made some bad decisions.

Sheep rifle Sept 7 - Oct 7 (some units are different, no blaze required)
Goat rifle Sept 7 - Oct 7 (some units are different, no blaze required)
Early Deer Rifle Sept 11 -19
Small game hunting... no blaze rifle is a legal method of take for some.

and that's just public land

for private land only there are Deer, Elk, and pronghorn rifle tags from Sept 2 - Jan 31.

So I guess just F-it?

Wait.... how about we just get rid of archery hunting, as that seems to be the issue..

We could move archery season to Nov and Dec... I'm sure CBA would LOVE that idea... I mean why do archery hunters need to be the group that get's to hunt the rut, archery is OTC and generally either-sex, muzzy is limited and bull only. Seems like we would way more elk on the ground...

No... no...you're right too heavy handed.... plus you can't ask an archery hunter to do literally anything...

hmmm....

oh wait... Archers can wear blaze during overlaps.



... so yeah life isn't all ice cream and chachas, accidents happen, it absolutely sucks that man was shot, but deaths dude to hunting are exceedingly rare, the vast majority nation wide are dudes falling out of tree stands (which haven't been banned), in the west they are heart attacks (we don't make you take a stress test before participating), and the firearm deaths that do happen are usually negligent discharges at the truck (do we have a gun ban?). All outdoor activities have some level of risk we average 8ish? deaths a year to avalanches. I lost a couple friends from high school in avalanches, it sucks, I don't think we should ban skiing.

This is the kinda of knee jerk reactions that leads to the loss of access and opportunity.

So hard NO for me.

My feelings would be to have a split archery like they do in New Mexico. 2 weeks archery. 1 week muzzy. 2 weeks archery. This isn't exactly how New Mexico does it but might be worth a look. Get more hunters a chance for archery tags because archery is not all otc and actually becoming more draw each year.

 

[Jason73]

I was listening to meateater and Steve made the same stupid, ignorant statements.

Ok... well we don't have a spring bear season (law says no hunting bears march 1 till sept 1, so I guess we just don't hunt bears? Cause you know bear rifle season is Sept 2-30th.

Please in your infinite wisdom explain where we can shift these around, or do we just throw out the entire CO system because some NRs made some bad decisions.

Sheep rifle Sept 7 - Oct 7 (some units are different, no blaze required)
Goat rifle Sept 7 - Oct 7 (some units are different, no blaze required)
Early Deer Rifle Sept 11 -19
Small game hunting... no blaze rifle is a legal method of take for some.

and that's just public land

for private land only there are Deer, Elk, and pronghorn rifle tags from Sept 2 - Jan 31.

So I guess just F-it?

Wait.... how about we just get rid of archery hunting, as that seems to be the issue..

We could move archery season to Nov and Dec... I'm sure CBA would LOVE that idea... I mean why do archery hunters need to be the group that get's to hunt the rut, archery is OTC and generally either-sex, muzzy is limited and bull only. Seems like we would way more elk on the ground...

No... no...you're right too heavy handed.... plus you can't ask an archery hunter to do literally anything...

hmmm....

oh wait... Archers can wear blaze during overlaps.



... so yeah life isn't all ice cream and chachas, accidents happen, it absolutely sucks that man was shot, but deaths dude to hunting are exceedingly rare, the vast majority nation wide are dudes falling out of tree stands (which haven't been banned), in the west they are heart attacks (we don't make you take a stress test before participating), and the firearm deaths that do happen are usually negligent discharges at the truck (do we have a gun ban?). All outdoor activities have some level of risk we average 8ish? deaths a year to avalanches. I lost a couple friends from high school in avalanches, it sucks, I don't think we should ban skiing.

This is the kinda of knee jerk reactions that leads to the loss of access and opportunity.

So hard NO for me.

I do find it odd to call shooting someone while hunting elk an accident? Just clarifying we are talking about confusing a 200 pound man to a 500-800 pound elk. That can't be called an accident ever. Negligence at a minimum and I hope the guy does some time.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I do find it odd to call shooting someone while hunting elk an accident? Just clarifying we are talking about confusing a 200 pound man to a 500-800 pound elk. That can't be called an accident ever. Negligence at a minimum and I hope the guy does some time.

He hasn't been found guilty and I'm not the DA... he hasn't been charged with murder he has been charged with involuntary manslaughter. If you want to call up gohunt and various media outlets and ask them to report this as "suspected negligent homicide" knock yourself out.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

My feelings would be to have a split archery like they do in New Mexico. 2 weeks archery. 1 week muzzy. 2 weeks archery. This isn't exactly how New Mexico does it but might be worth a look. Get more hunters a chance for archery tags because archery is not all otc and actually becoming more draw each year.

I have no problem splitting archery making it limited and pushing muzzy.

Folks in CO like having a gap between the seasons with the hope that deer and elk will venture from sanctuaries on private back onto public before rifle season. In my experience that's trash, but that would be/ has been the push back.

That still doesn't address the issue of lots of firearms in archery season.

Further, acting like we need to "fix" a safety issue caused by firearm hunting in a multi-use area just gives fuel to anti hunters. What's next no rifle hunting period?

So to that end I think all hunters, need to be firm. NO, we need no change. Hunting is a very safe sport, this individual and situation is a horrible outlier.

Crowding and method of take conversations need to be had, but at a different point and not because of this incident.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I’m all for separating the seasons but it won’t keep someone from getting shot again forever. When you have idiots in the woods who blindly fire into the bushes without identifying their target this will happen again.
If the seasons are separated it will just be a muzzleloader hunter shooting another muzzleloader hunter.

Unfortunately I don’t think season structure or blaze orange would have changed the outcome of this. When someone as negligent and incompetent as that hunter is roaming the woods bad things are going to happen. He literally could have shot anyone because he didn’t follow basic principles and rules of hunting.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that in CO you are 1 and done. You get to hunt 1 season, that's it.

Would you honestly pick flintlock as your only chance to kill a deer in PA?

These conversations IMHO get super tribal in CO, I think we need to be method agnostic and give everyone a reasonable chance to harvest an animal. It's a balancing act.

 

[BrentD]

Would you honestly pick flintlock as your only chance to kill a deer in PA?

Without question I would, and in this regard, I'm far from being alone or even slightly eccentric. Centerfire seasons in many places are just plain crazy. Even shotgun-only seasons have become way too overpopulated with shooters (and maybe hunters). Many of us choose seasons, not by the best/easiest technology that needs to be mastered but because the season will have the least crowding - even if it has the least probability of success.

Long live the rocklocks and rocklock-only seasons!

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Without question I would, and in this regard, I'm far from being alone or even slightly eccentric. Centerfire seasons in many places are just plain crazy. Even shotgun-only seasons have become way too overpopulated with shooters (and maybe hunters). Many of us choose seasons, not by the best/easiest technology that needs to be mastered but because the season will have the least crowding - even if it has the least probability of success.

Long live the rocklocks and rocklock-only seasons!

I’m shocked, shocked Brent you would pick the old gun season

Crowding is a product of quotas though in the case of CO.

The least crowded seasons are 1st rifle and 4th rifle, simply because they are limited with low quotas, not OTC, and they have the fewest overlapping season… no limited bear, in the case of first rifle no deer season.

The real issue in CO so far as crowing is that archery is a month it’s during the most popular time to be in the mountains in CO, and it’s OTC. CPW has reported on this, in some units archery is up 1200% since the seasons were started. In many they are 70% non-residents.

In fact in CO, rifle hunting participation has dramatically declined.




So in the case of CO, “primitive” does not mean less crowded, it’s quite the opposite.

That doesn’t really address your point though which was you’d pick a December muzzy hunt with low success rates, but your comment doesn’t really address the larger theme of telling 10k hunters to deal with shitty success rates because a bunch of guys with bows are overly concerned with fashion.