Bighorn Sheep Killed
- Thread starter Nemont
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Ithaca 37
New member
"Domestic sheep ranchers often oppose bighorn reintroduction projects, and sticking with the original "could open some doors in other places," he said."
So, once again you see a greedy bunch of welfare ranchers in action preventing bighorns from being re-introduced to their historic habitat. The reason they have to be re-introduced is because they were wiped out by diseases spread to them by domestic sheep 50-100 years ago. I say move all the range maggots instead.
[ 03-26-2004, 13:04: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]
So, once again you see a greedy bunch of welfare ranchers in action preventing bighorns from being re-introduced to their historic habitat. The reason they have to be re-introduced is because they were wiped out by diseases spread to them by domestic sheep 50-100 years ago. I say move all the range maggots instead.
[ 03-26-2004, 13:04: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]
BuzzH
Well-known member
Wheres Paul?
I warned him about this very scenerio several months ago.
He assured us all that it wouldnt happen.
The transplanted sheep came from stock that dont disperse...yeah sure.
In this case though, I'm actually sorry that I was right....
[ 03-26-2004, 14:08: Message edited by: BuzzH ]
I warned him about this very scenerio several months ago.
He assured us all that it wouldnt happen.
The transplanted sheep came from stock that dont disperse...yeah sure.
In this case though, I'm actually sorry that I was right....
[ 03-26-2004, 14:08: Message edited by: BuzzH ]
BuzzH
Well-known member
I wonder if Paul remembers this???
BigHornyRam
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Member # 899
Member Rated:
posted 05-20-2003 09:45
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Buzz,
You are such a glass is half empty kind of guy.
Here's a good example:
"Oh, and on those sheep in the Greenhorns, your compromise will more than likely get those sheep a good dose of Pasteurella, just like those found near Lima in Big Sheep Creek."
One compromise limits where and where not the wild sheep can roam. They leave the designated area and they will be killed. Another allows the sheepherder authority to kill any wild sheep (in particular rams that come to breed the domestic ewes) that comes in contact with his herd. The sheep producer doesn't want any of the wild sheep to contract pasteurella any more than we do. The sheep producers are sensitive to the fact that if any wild sheep herd contracts pasteurella, they will be blamed, and pressure will be put on them from the Ithacan's to end their livelyhood. Sensitive issues that need to be diplomatically addressed. At any rate we got a new wild sheep herd established in Montana.
Paul
--------------------
Line from the movie Outlaw Josie Wales: "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."
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BuzzH
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Member # 189
Rate Member posted 05-20-2003 16:27
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Paul, no I'm not a glass is half empty type of guy, I'm just not afraid of the truth.
Honestly, what friggen chance do those sheep have of NOT contracting pasteurella in the Greenhorns?
Beings how the Gravelly range is fargin littered with domestic sheep, and its only a hop-skip-and jump to the Greenhorns...I'd give that herd a 90-95% probability of getting the disease. I'm not sure if there are domestic sheep being grazed in the Greenhorns, but theres lots of them very close...I say too close. I worked in all that country for a few years, I saw domestic sheep all over the damn place.
Also from my own observations as well as countless studies have proven, wild sheep disperse all over the place. Its highly likely for one to come into contact with a domestic sheep, and thats about all it takes.
What needs to happen is for the domestic sheep grazing on public lands to end. Ithaca has already proved it many times over it isnt profitable for the government...and it imperils wild sheep...by the way, what the hell kind of a wild sheep advocate would not want domestic sheep grazing on NF lands to end? Damn few would be my guess.
Thanks for proving my point that wildlife takes the back seat...even to unprofitable, damaging, and subsidized programs. What a great compromise! Good job Paul.
--------------------
"...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana."
-Norman Maclean
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Ithaca 37
Member
Member # 366
posted 05-20-2003 17:53
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Paul, "One compromise limits where and where not the wild sheep can roam. They leave the designated area and they will be killed. Another allows the sheepherder authority to kill any wild sheep (in particular rams that come to breed the domestic ewes) that comes in contact with his herd...."
You call that a compromise and a good deal for the bighorn sheep? All that shows is how desperate you are to believe somebody has negotiated something beneficial for bighorn sheep!
Earth calling Paul! That's a terrible deal and wildlife got screwed again! And the fact that you're happy with it shows how willing you are to settle for nothing! Wake up!
--------------------
"Any hunter or angler who is not an environmentalist...is a damned fool." Conservation writer Ted Williams
"If things seem under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--Mario Andretti
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BigHornyRam
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Member # 899
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posted 05-21-2003 07:01
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Buzz,
Here you go again, talking about the past as if it were the present. There is only one sheep producer left in the Gravelly Mountains, and some day he may decide to call it quits. Don't know if you know this or not but there are some sheep herds that stick closer to a traditional home range, and there are some that tend to disperse more readily. Guess which sheep make up the transplant stock?
Ithaca,
I know this discussion is complex and you are having trouble following along. Go back to painting your nails.
Paul
--------------------
Line from the movie Outlaw Josie Wales: "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 465 | From: T Falls, MT | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged |
BuzzH
Member
Member # 189
Rate Member posted 05-21-2003 18:33
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Paul, what the hell are you babbling about?
When did that sheep herd in Big Sheep Creek die off? Wasnt it 1998-99? That isnt exactly ancient history. How about the Anaconda herd? Early 90's right? Root cause of both DOMESTIC SHEEP.
Theres still sheep grazing happening in the Gravelly range for sure, and more than likely the Greenhorns.
I dont care what herd you get your stock for the transplant from...wild sheep disperse, from every herd in Montana.
I will agree some tend to stay close to home (Petty Creek for example), but I think thats more of a function of the habitat they live in and natural barriers, rather than any instinctual behavior in bighorns. What is it the "dispersal gene"?
--------------------
"...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana."
-Norman Maclean
BigHornyRam
Member
Member # 899
Member Rated:
posted 05-20-2003 09:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz,
You are such a glass is half empty kind of guy.
Here's a good example:
"Oh, and on those sheep in the Greenhorns, your compromise will more than likely get those sheep a good dose of Pasteurella, just like those found near Lima in Big Sheep Creek."
One compromise limits where and where not the wild sheep can roam. They leave the designated area and they will be killed. Another allows the sheepherder authority to kill any wild sheep (in particular rams that come to breed the domestic ewes) that comes in contact with his herd. The sheep producer doesn't want any of the wild sheep to contract pasteurella any more than we do. The sheep producers are sensitive to the fact that if any wild sheep herd contracts pasteurella, they will be blamed, and pressure will be put on them from the Ithacan's to end their livelyhood. Sensitive issues that need to be diplomatically addressed. At any rate we got a new wild sheep herd established in Montana.
Paul
--------------------
Line from the movie Outlaw Josie Wales: "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 465 | From: T Falls, MT | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged |
BuzzH
Member
Member # 189
Rate Member posted 05-20-2003 16:27
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul, no I'm not a glass is half empty type of guy, I'm just not afraid of the truth.
Honestly, what friggen chance do those sheep have of NOT contracting pasteurella in the Greenhorns?
Beings how the Gravelly range is fargin littered with domestic sheep, and its only a hop-skip-and jump to the Greenhorns...I'd give that herd a 90-95% probability of getting the disease. I'm not sure if there are domestic sheep being grazed in the Greenhorns, but theres lots of them very close...I say too close. I worked in all that country for a few years, I saw domestic sheep all over the damn place.
Also from my own observations as well as countless studies have proven, wild sheep disperse all over the place. Its highly likely for one to come into contact with a domestic sheep, and thats about all it takes.
What needs to happen is for the domestic sheep grazing on public lands to end. Ithaca has already proved it many times over it isnt profitable for the government...and it imperils wild sheep...by the way, what the hell kind of a wild sheep advocate would not want domestic sheep grazing on NF lands to end? Damn few would be my guess.
Thanks for proving my point that wildlife takes the back seat...even to unprofitable, damaging, and subsidized programs. What a great compromise! Good job Paul.
--------------------
"...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana."
-Norman Maclean
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 2002 | From: Laramie, WY | Registered: Jan 2001 | IP: Logged |
Ithaca 37
Member
Member # 366
posted 05-20-2003 17:53
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul, "One compromise limits where and where not the wild sheep can roam. They leave the designated area and they will be killed. Another allows the sheepherder authority to kill any wild sheep (in particular rams that come to breed the domestic ewes) that comes in contact with his herd...."
You call that a compromise and a good deal for the bighorn sheep? All that shows is how desperate you are to believe somebody has negotiated something beneficial for bighorn sheep!
Earth calling Paul! That's a terrible deal and wildlife got screwed again! And the fact that you're happy with it shows how willing you are to settle for nothing! Wake up!
--------------------
"Any hunter or angler who is not an environmentalist...is a damned fool." Conservation writer Ted Williams
"If things seem under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--Mario Andretti
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 5153 | From: S.W. Idaho | Registered: Mar 2001 | IP: Logged |
BigHornyRam
Member
Member # 899
Member Rated:
posted 05-21-2003 07:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz,
Here you go again, talking about the past as if it were the present. There is only one sheep producer left in the Gravelly Mountains, and some day he may decide to call it quits. Don't know if you know this or not but there are some sheep herds that stick closer to a traditional home range, and there are some that tend to disperse more readily. Guess which sheep make up the transplant stock?
Ithaca,
I know this discussion is complex and you are having trouble following along. Go back to painting your nails.
Paul
--------------------
Line from the movie Outlaw Josie Wales: "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 465 | From: T Falls, MT | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged |
BuzzH
Member
Member # 189
Rate Member posted 05-21-2003 18:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul, what the hell are you babbling about?
When did that sheep herd in Big Sheep Creek die off? Wasnt it 1998-99? That isnt exactly ancient history. How about the Anaconda herd? Early 90's right? Root cause of both DOMESTIC SHEEP.
Theres still sheep grazing happening in the Gravelly range for sure, and more than likely the Greenhorns.
I dont care what herd you get your stock for the transplant from...wild sheep disperse, from every herd in Montana.
I will agree some tend to stay close to home (Petty Creek for example), but I think thats more of a function of the habitat they live in and natural barriers, rather than any instinctual behavior in bighorns. What is it the "dispersal gene"?
--------------------
"...the world outside, which my brother and I soon discovered, was full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana."
-Norman Maclean
BuzzH
Well-known member
Well now, lets here it for all that "compromising" being such a great deal for wildlife.
When are sportsmen going to wake up and realize you get screwed when you compromise???
When are sportsmen going to wake up and realize you get screwed when you compromise???
Bambistew
Well-known member
Do you know how many sheep this one producer runs in the gravely complex? Its well past a thousand... closer to 5 than 1
One thing about it... the wolves sure played hell with his flock last summer. Maybe we just need more wolves to help the bighorns
I say the bighorns come first and the domestic sheep come second or not at all. End of story. There is so much great sheep range all over the west (historic) that used to hold thousands of sheep... but not any more! Those frign range magotts should be on private land...
Bambistew
Well-known member
Wandering bighorns may be destroyed
By Perry Backus of The Montana Standard - 03/26/2004
Hamilton-based biologist John Voreand Quentin Kujala, a Sun River biologist and Anaconda native, carry a bighorn to a horse trailer during a recent capture operation near Augusta. The bighorns were later released in the Greenhorn Mountains near Alder. Perry Backus/The Montana Standard
ALDER — Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks officials have decided that up to seven bighorn sheep that wandered away from their new home in the Greenhorn Mountains last year may have to be destroyed.
That decision has created
controversy.
The bighorns are part of a new
population the state is attempting to build in the Greenhorn Mountains near Alder. Over the last two years, state biologists have captured and moved about 80 bighorn sheep into the area.
Some of those wild sheep haven't stayed put. When they've wandered into areas where they'd have to share the range with domestic sheep, state biologists are required to either attempt to capture the animals or destroy them under an agreement signed before the relocation effort began.
After a couple of failed attempts to capture the group of seven that have set up shop near the Sweetwater Road, officials have decided they'll make one more attempt at tranquilizing the
animals. The ones they can't capture will be destroyed.
That decision has members of the Gallatin Wildlife Association in Bozeman upset.
Glen Hockett, president of the group, said members of are "outraged" that bighorn sheep were slated to be destroyed.
"We're disappointed as sportsmen that our interests don't seem to matter at all," Hockett said. "The sheep
producers seem to be running the whole area."
Hockett said it's time that federal and state land agencies begin to
consider the public benefits of wildlife on public lands. Bighorn sheep
permits have sold as high as $310,000 at auction, he said.
"That's more than all the grazing permits bring in for the BLM's Dillon Resource Area," he said.
If the state is really interested in preserving bighorn sheep and other wildlife species like wolves and grizzly bears, Hockett said people need to consider the benefits the public receives from allowing a few families to dictate how public lands will be used.
But Kurt Alt, FWP's Region 3 wildlife manager, said everyone knew that there would be difficult decisions to made when the state decided to try reintroducing bighorn sheep into the Greenhorn Mountains.
The proximity of domestic sheep in the Gravelly Range and other nearby locations made the decision to put sheep into the area difficult from the beginning, he said.
The state recognizes that bighorn and domestic sheep don't mix. Bighorns that mingle with domestic sheep have the potential of picking up disease. And ranchers worry that bighorn rams could breed their ewes.
"We knew it was going to be a difficult new population," he said.
So the agency compromised with local sheep ranchers — giving them the ability to shoot any rams that wander into their flocks.
"We would have killed them anyway," said Alt. "We don't want them to bring back any disease to the rest of the bighorn sheep."
Alt said the agency attempted twice to capture the seven bighorn sheep being targeted. At a cost of nearly $2,500 a try, the sheep eluded that effort. Now, with domestic sheep being moved into the same proximity, Alt said the agency is forced to take stronger steps.
"That way we look at it, if in five years we have 150 sheep in the Greenhorn and we have to kill five or 10 a year, that's an acceptable cost," Alt said. "Maybe in 30 years from now, things will change and we can allow for some sheep to migrate into some new areas."
Alt said the agency believes people and wildlife need to co-exist.
"This isn't a Yellowstone National Park model. It's a North American model," Alt said. "We're not trying to eliminate people and their livelihoods."
Sheep rancher Joe Helle said woolgrowers and local ranchers signed off on the efforts to bring back bighorn sheep to the Greenhorns because of the compromise agreement.
"All they are doing is trying to follow the procedure set up in that agreement," Helle said.
If landowners and ranchers had vehemently opposed the Greenhorn bighorn transplant, it would probably have never happened, Helle said.
"This was a compromise by us that we felt everyone could benefit by," he said. "It was our concern right from the beginning that the sheep wouldn't stay in the Greenhorns … we felt this compromise would benefit everyone. We could continue to raise sheep and the public would have some more bighorn sheep around."
Helle said his family has spent three generations developing its herd that it sells as good replacement stock to sheep ranchers around the country. They can't afford to have interbreeding with bighorn sheep, he said.
The Gallatin Wildlife Association is "trying to drive a wedge between everyone who has worked together on this project," Helle said. "They are a group of radical environmentalists who are trying to eliminate livestock grazing on public lands … they are not interested in trying to work together or compromise."
Tom Bugni of the Skyline Sportsmen Association in Butte said that group supports the efforts of FWP in trying to manage the Greenhorn bighorn sheep. "If they have an agreement in place, then that's just the way it is," said Bugni.
Bugni said that group knows how difficult it is to get a new herd of bighorn sheep started in the state.
"If people start raising hell about it and not be willing to work with landowners, then it's just going to be that much more difficult the next time around," Bugni said. "These are some good people who have to be able to make a living … we have to be able to get along."
"If we get a sheep hunt in the future in the Greenhorns, then we'll feel lucky that we have another place to hunt bighorns in the future," he said.
— Reporter Perry Backus may be reached via e-mail at [email protected].
Email this story Print this story
http://www.mtstandard.com/articles/2004/03/26/outdoors/hjjfjghdjcfjjf.txt
By Perry Backus of The Montana Standard - 03/26/2004
Hamilton-based biologist John Voreand Quentin Kujala, a Sun River biologist and Anaconda native, carry a bighorn to a horse trailer during a recent capture operation near Augusta. The bighorns were later released in the Greenhorn Mountains near Alder. Perry Backus/The Montana Standard
ALDER — Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks officials have decided that up to seven bighorn sheep that wandered away from their new home in the Greenhorn Mountains last year may have to be destroyed.
That decision has created
controversy.
The bighorns are part of a new
population the state is attempting to build in the Greenhorn Mountains near Alder. Over the last two years, state biologists have captured and moved about 80 bighorn sheep into the area.
Some of those wild sheep haven't stayed put. When they've wandered into areas where they'd have to share the range with domestic sheep, state biologists are required to either attempt to capture the animals or destroy them under an agreement signed before the relocation effort began.
After a couple of failed attempts to capture the group of seven that have set up shop near the Sweetwater Road, officials have decided they'll make one more attempt at tranquilizing the
animals. The ones they can't capture will be destroyed.
That decision has members of the Gallatin Wildlife Association in Bozeman upset.
Glen Hockett, president of the group, said members of are "outraged" that bighorn sheep were slated to be destroyed.
"We're disappointed as sportsmen that our interests don't seem to matter at all," Hockett said. "The sheep
producers seem to be running the whole area."
Hockett said it's time that federal and state land agencies begin to
consider the public benefits of wildlife on public lands. Bighorn sheep
permits have sold as high as $310,000 at auction, he said.
"That's more than all the grazing permits bring in for the BLM's Dillon Resource Area," he said.
If the state is really interested in preserving bighorn sheep and other wildlife species like wolves and grizzly bears, Hockett said people need to consider the benefits the public receives from allowing a few families to dictate how public lands will be used.
But Kurt Alt, FWP's Region 3 wildlife manager, said everyone knew that there would be difficult decisions to made when the state decided to try reintroducing bighorn sheep into the Greenhorn Mountains.
The proximity of domestic sheep in the Gravelly Range and other nearby locations made the decision to put sheep into the area difficult from the beginning, he said.
The state recognizes that bighorn and domestic sheep don't mix. Bighorns that mingle with domestic sheep have the potential of picking up disease. And ranchers worry that bighorn rams could breed their ewes.
"We knew it was going to be a difficult new population," he said.
So the agency compromised with local sheep ranchers — giving them the ability to shoot any rams that wander into their flocks.
"We would have killed them anyway," said Alt. "We don't want them to bring back any disease to the rest of the bighorn sheep."
Alt said the agency attempted twice to capture the seven bighorn sheep being targeted. At a cost of nearly $2,500 a try, the sheep eluded that effort. Now, with domestic sheep being moved into the same proximity, Alt said the agency is forced to take stronger steps.
"That way we look at it, if in five years we have 150 sheep in the Greenhorn and we have to kill five or 10 a year, that's an acceptable cost," Alt said. "Maybe in 30 years from now, things will change and we can allow for some sheep to migrate into some new areas."
Alt said the agency believes people and wildlife need to co-exist.
"This isn't a Yellowstone National Park model. It's a North American model," Alt said. "We're not trying to eliminate people and their livelihoods."
Sheep rancher Joe Helle said woolgrowers and local ranchers signed off on the efforts to bring back bighorn sheep to the Greenhorns because of the compromise agreement.
"All they are doing is trying to follow the procedure set up in that agreement," Helle said.
If landowners and ranchers had vehemently opposed the Greenhorn bighorn transplant, it would probably have never happened, Helle said.
"This was a compromise by us that we felt everyone could benefit by," he said. "It was our concern right from the beginning that the sheep wouldn't stay in the Greenhorns … we felt this compromise would benefit everyone. We could continue to raise sheep and the public would have some more bighorn sheep around."
Helle said his family has spent three generations developing its herd that it sells as good replacement stock to sheep ranchers around the country. They can't afford to have interbreeding with bighorn sheep, he said.
The Gallatin Wildlife Association is "trying to drive a wedge between everyone who has worked together on this project," Helle said. "They are a group of radical environmentalists who are trying to eliminate livestock grazing on public lands … they are not interested in trying to work together or compromise."
Tom Bugni of the Skyline Sportsmen Association in Butte said that group supports the efforts of FWP in trying to manage the Greenhorn bighorn sheep. "If they have an agreement in place, then that's just the way it is," said Bugni.
Bugni said that group knows how difficult it is to get a new herd of bighorn sheep started in the state.
"If people start raising hell about it and not be willing to work with landowners, then it's just going to be that much more difficult the next time around," Bugni said. "These are some good people who have to be able to make a living … we have to be able to get along."
"If we get a sheep hunt in the future in the Greenhorns, then we'll feel lucky that we have another place to hunt bighorns in the future," he said.
— Reporter Perry Backus may be reached via e-mail at [email protected].
Email this story Print this story
http://www.mtstandard.com/articles/2004/03/26/outdoors/hjjfjghdjcfjjf.txt
Nemont
Well-known member
My bad the orginal post should have said "May be Killed" sorry for the confusion. It is still an issue that needs to be addressed. It is difficult enough to draw a Bighorn Sheep tag. I am curious about the chances of disease transmission from wild to domestic sheep. Anyone know?
Nemont
Nemont
Ithaca 37
New member
Nemont, "the chances of disease transmission from wild to domestic sheep." As far as I know there's never been a proven case of wild sheep transmitting a disease to domestic sheep.. Maybe you can prove me wrong with something in these links:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=domestic+sheep+spread+diseases+to+wild
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=domestic+sheep+spread+diseases+to+wild
Nemont
Well-known member
IT,
I was trying to prove anyone right or wrong. I just didn't know. I am also curious how close the two populations actually get. I am thinking there should be enough room for the wild ones to make a living there.
Hope it doesn't come to shooting them.
Nemont
I was trying to prove anyone right or wrong. I just didn't know. I am also curious how close the two populations actually get. I am thinking there should be enough room for the wild ones to make a living there.
Hope it doesn't come to shooting them.
Nemont
Ithaca 37
New member
Well, the young rams will roam pretty far, and unless there's a double fence between them and the domestic sheep there's always a chance of contact.
It was a disease from domestic goats that decimated the bighorns in Hell's Canyon about 8 years ago.
It was a disease from domestic goats that decimated the bighorns in Hell's Canyon about 8 years ago.
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