Biden restores Bears Ears National Monument size

[marksjeep]

I've heard nothing of this until this morning. I'd prefer to see a legislative solution to all of the nonsense, but given the dysfunction of our legislative branch of gov, I don't think that's possible. So, we'll continue to ping pong back and forth. This is some amazing country. I've explored it little, but always come home amazed at the landscape.

https://apnews.com/article/joe-bide...-environment-1d8b5a0ff3814f78c5e8bc97c37fc32e

https://www.gjsentinel.com/news/bea...cle_43f3ca14-2856-11ec-9a91-377ee297bb5e.html

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

"The Trump administration’s reductions to Bears Ears and Grand Staircase-Escalante paved the way for potential coal mining and oil and gas drilling on lands that were previously off-limits. However, activity was limited because of market forces."

Lol as in all the wells out there are garbage and most have been abandoned, and the active coal mines in the US are struggling there is no way in hell you are raising capital to build a mine. Say what you will about the process but the extraction arguments both sides were making were an absolute farce.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Lol as in all the wells out there are garbage and most have been abandoned, and the active coal mines in the US are struggling there is no way in hell you are raising capital to build a mine. Say what you will about the process but the extraction arguments both sides were making were an absolute farce.

Agreed,,, However, the real threat isn't so much potential development as it was the lack of conservation management that would occur if those lands did get leased. When leasing occurs, then other uses tend to take a backseat so that the lease holder is able to explore & potentially develop said lease. As tribes revered the area as sacred, that was causing concerns about holy sites/culturally important sites as well as potential for outlaw ATV use to continue unmitigated. Plenty of evidence of ATV abuse in a lot of those areas, especially WSA's around Valley of the Gods.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Agreed,,, However, the real threat isn't so much potential development as it was the lack of conservation management that would occur if those lands did get leased. When leasing occurs, then other uses tend to take a backseat so that the lease holder is able to explore & potentially develop said lease. As tribes revered the area as sacred, that was causing concerns about holy sites/culturally important sites as well as potential for outlaw ATV use to continue unmitigated. Plenty of evidence of ATV abuse in a lot of those areas, especially WSA's around Valley of the Gods.

Totally agree... I think from a public lands resource perspective it's way more valuable as a cultural/wilderness site.

It's just not an economic place to develop energy and that use should be taken out of the conversation, is more my point.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Totally agree... I think from a public lands resource perspective it's way more valuable as a cultural/wilderness site.

It's just not an economic place to develop energy and that use should be taken out of the conversation, is more my point.

"There is no money to be made in accurately reflecting the threat when hyperbole will produce greater yields."

Benjamin John Pierpont Morgan Lamb the VII

 

[OntarioHunter]

I would have preferred a JUDICIAL resolution but glad to have the quick fix from Biden accomplish the same thing. I think the GOP are glad too. Trump's ridiculous shoot-from-the-hip reduction of the monument's size (+80%) set a dangerous precedent that I was fairly confident the courts would eventually throw out. Right now the GOP are dealing with enough mega embarrassments from the past administration. Time for them to do some healing. Doubtful they'll raise much of a fuss about this. I also think Biden's timing is helpful. Rather than wholesale revoking all the previous administration's foolishness as soon as he got in office, it makes more sense to undo it gradually. Shows at least a semblance of giving some thought before acting.

 

[Irrelevant]

Agreed,,, However, the real threat isn't so much potential development as it was the lack of conservation management that would occur if those lands did get leased. When leasing occurs, then other uses tend to take a backseat so that the lease holder is able to explore & potentially develop said lease. As tribes revered the area as sacred, that was causing concerns about holy sites/culturally important sites as well as potential for outlaw ATV use to continue unmitigated. Plenty of evidence of ATV abuse in a lot of those areas, especially WSA's around Valley of the Gods.

IDK, there's a pretty strong case to be made to keep yur mouth shut about places you'd like to protect. https://www.hcn.org/articles/indige...etroglyph-vandalism-is-not-a-victimless-crime

You either get vandalism or simply loving it to death.

 

[Sytes]

Modern day political pendulum - episode Lost count! Another political football... joy.

 

[OntarioHunter]

The biggest problem with National Monuments is the president can create them with the wave of a pen but Congress has to furnish the funding to make them work. If the two branches are at odds when the monument is created, then it doesn't work. National Parks, on the other hand, have to be created by Congress and approved by the president. So both branches feel some obligation to make it work.

During my years in the Park Service I saw many National Monuments that were in a real mess because they had no funding. Right off hand I can think of one rather large one that for many years after creation had just one person managing the whole thing. Yep, the supt also changed the toilet paper in the johns. Having said that, I think all but the radical sagebrush revolutionaries who seem to run things in Utah were happy enough with the creation of this monument. Reducing the size dramatically was meant to keep those folks on board with Trump and out of Mitt Romney's camp. I agree, creating that monument or reducing its size probably didn't mean much to the energy sector one way or the other.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Modern day political pendulum - episode Lost count! Another political football... joy.

Oh great another bucks vs patriots week

 

[Ben Lamb]

IDK, there's a pretty strong case to be made to keep yur mouth shut about places you'd like to protect. https://www.hcn.org/articles/indige...etroglyph-vandalism-is-not-a-victimless-crime

You either get vandalism or simply loving it to death.

Last time I was in Valley of the gods, it was before it became part of Bears Ears. That ATV abuse was already underway. Putting a layer of designation on a place hasn't really proven to be detrimental to a place unless you only focus on the recreational issues that comes along with the noteriety of those places, but ultimately, those are management decisions that have to be made rather than thinking than special places will be fine if we just leave them undiscovered. They've been discovered, and with more people in the world, they're getting abused even faster.

 

[Irrelevant]

Last time I was in Valley of the gods, it was before it became part of Bears Ears. That ATV abuse was already underway. Putting a layer of designation on a place hasn't really proven to be detrimental to a place unless you only focus on the recreational issues that comes along with the noteriety of those places, but ultimately, those are management decisions that have to be made rather than thinking than special places will be fine if we just leave them undiscovered. They've been discovered, and with more people in the world, they're getting abused even faster.

ATV abuse > Recreational Abuse?

 

[Ben Lamb]

ATV abuse > Recreational Abuse?

it all falls under recreational abuse. The Olympic Peninsula is a good example of being loved-to-death while simultaneously doing a fairly good job of managing recreation inside and outside of a national park.

Ultimately, we're talking about regulating usage, and enforcement.

 

[grizzly_]

I've spent countless days hunting and recreating in both GSENM & BENM and the biggest problem I've seen is it put those locations on the figurative "map."

Sometimes shining light on a sensitive area is the worst possible way to protect it and I believe that applies here, especially to BENM as it's not "on the way" to anywhere and requires it being a specific destination. People can pass through GSENM on their way to Bryce or elsewhere, but there's no reason to be in the Blanding and Monticello area unless that's where you're going.

Much of BENM is not especially pretty in comparative to other National Forests and it's being designated due to cultural significance... all this designation did is bring more people to upset the very cultural artifacts that they're trying to protect.
It's not dissimilar to when Big Fin posted the pictures of grinding stones he found while hunting but didn't give the coordinates... advertising their location would only lead to more damage.

I still remember one night when we were hunting bears in BENM (right next to the meadow where Zinke had his famous horse ride photoshoot) and a car pulled up and asked where he could find the Bears Ears. I said, "You're here." The look of disappointment on his face was so clear.

I'm 100% pro-conservation, but sometimes that means keeping our collective mouth shut.

 

[Irrelevant]

it all falls under recreational abuse. The Olympic Peninsula is a good example of being loved-to-death while simultaneously doing a fairly good job of managing recreation inside and outside of a national park.

Ultimately, we're talking about regulating usage, and enforcement.

At one point someone wanted to protect area now comprised of Arches NP. Did they succeed? I don't think so.

 

[Ben Lamb]

At one point someone wanted to protect area now comprised of Arches NP. Did they succeed? I don't think so.

I would say they did. It's not developed, just overly loved. That's kind of a good problem to have, no?

 

[Irrelevant]

I would say they did. It's not developed, just overly loved. That's kind of a good problem to have, no?

There are literally thousands of cities with fewer people in them than ANP, I call that development. I mean what is protection in your eyes? When I was there's litter along ever trail, I see people everywhere I look, it's a steady stream of humanity that is more similar to Disney land than any patch of O&G blm I've ever visited. The only type of additional development I could see that could actually make the hellscape worse is if they did some kind of massive pit mine.

 

[Ben Lamb]

There are literally thousands of cities with fewer people in them than ANP, I call that development. I mean what is protection in your eyes? When I was there's litter along ever trail, I see people everywhere I look, it's a steady stream of humanity that is more similar to Disney land than any patch of O&G blm I've ever visited. The only type of additional development I could see that could actually make the hellscape worse is if they did some kind of massive pit mine.

Considering it was all potentially open for O&G development, I think the current level of management is far more preferable. You're conflating lack of resource management to development. That's wrong.

 

[Irrelevant]

Considering it was all potentially open for O&G development, I think the current level of management is far more preferable. You're conflating lack of resource management to development. That's wrong.

I disagree. I'm simply looking at a resource. Something that someone values, and two difference forms of human development. One of them we conveniently call "protecting". Neither actually protects the resource that was originally valued.

Is the Delicate Arch inherently valuable? Would it be as valuable if we built a heated building around it? Is it as valuable with 1,000 people amassed around it?

 

[Ben Lamb]

I disagree. I'm simply looking at a resource. Something that someone values, and two difference forms of human development. One of them we conveniently call "protecting". Neither actually protects the resource that was originally valued.

Is the Delicate Arch inherently valuable? Would it be as valuable if we built a heated building around it? Is it as valuable with 1,000 people amassed around it?

The problem you describe is not one of permanence though. It's about your perception of the experience.

Hiring more maintenence workers to clean up the trails & roadside takes care of one complaint.

Limiting the number of people each day into the park takes care of another.

Crowding on Going to the Sun Road was so bad, they issued tickets. No ticket, no drive. Denali makes you get on a bus to go anywhere other than on foot.

The time of more intensive management of parks is coming. We're already having to use the access pass on public lands for trails. I see no reason why we can't manage Parks for a better experience while cutting down on traffic. Many communities won't like that, as they see expansion of crowds as good business.