A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides

Nick87

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I agree. Though I don't think it's ever too late to improve things go forward, even if all you're doing is keeping them from getting worse.

Further, I think those on this form, and by that I mean hunters, have a huge gun blind spot, education.

There likely isn't a member on this forum who hasn't passed 1 if not multiple hunter's ed courses. Those all teach basic firearm handling.

Realty check a HUGE portion of firearm owners in the US never do that. I think most folks here have a trajectory with firearms that goes something like this... grew up with guns, learned to hunt, maybe served in the military, hunted as an adult, at some point purchased a hand gun or an AR. AR either for personal defense or for predator hunting.

The largest group of first time gun purchasers are buying hand guns then ARs, they are never taking hunters Ed or any type of training.

Go back and look at some of the online hunter's ed discussion on the forum, some folks thought it absurd that during Covid you didn't have to do the field day portion.

Ok so adult onset hunter Joe needs to do firearms training to hunt elk, but Chad doesn't to "defend his home" with an AR? We aren't even going to make sure it knows how to load his firearm properly. No explanation of the castle doctrine or stand your ground laws?
Lot of truth to that, seen it first hand more than once.
 

Bigjay73

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@ajrcktts and @Bigjay73 I definitely think there are issues with the MA system, but if you look at the systems holistically it's about as easy to buy a gun and hunt in MA as it is in CO. Getting your LTC is about the same amount of time and effort as figuring out which unit to hunt and applying for a unit in CO and dealing with the point system.

Point being it's a bunch of hoops to jump through, but compared to what I do to get various hunting licenses it's not really that onerous.
Thanks for the write up, not much to ask after that. It definitely feels like it's a lot of hoops, but the first time I applied in Wyoming felt confusing, now its a piece of cake. I imagine once you go through the process, it makes a lot more sense.
 

wllm

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Lot of truth to that, seen it first hand more than once.
To get a LTC in MA I had to take a firearm course, they know their audience the entire course was about handguns. They didn't even mention bolt action rifles or pump shotguns, out of maybe 30 adults in the course I was the only one who A. owned guns, and B. was interested in hunting.

The entire class was folks who wanted a handgun for personal defense.

That experience really opened my eyes to the "biggest growing demographic of gun owners". We are over here giving ontario a hard time about scoping people, meanwhile these folks have never even shot a gun before and are buying a glock, not exactly the "my first shooting experience was at 8 years old plinking with a .22" that I think most folks on here envision.
 

Nick87

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To get a LTC in MA I had to take a firearm course, they know their audience the entire course was about handguns. They didn't even mention bolt action rifles or pump shotguns, out of maybe 30 adults in the course I was the only one who A. owned guns, and B. was interested in hunting.

The entire class was folks who wanted a handgun for personal defense.

That experience really opened my eyes to the "biggest growing demographic of gun owners". We are over here giving ontario a hard time about scoping people, meanwhile these folks have never even shot a gun before and are buying a glock, not exactly the "my first shooting experience was at 8 years old plinking with a .22" that I think most folks on here envision.
A trip to the local gun store will show that. You can tell a lot of people the way they handle a gun on display have zero experience or education of gun safety. For that reason public range is just someplace I don't need to go. Puts me on edge the entire time I'm there.
 

VikingsGuy

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The largest group of first time gun purchasers are buying handguns then ARs, they are never taking hunters Ed or any type of training.

It scares the heck out of me (and pisses me off) how many gun owners have no idea what they are doing. Never taught by dad/grandpa, no hunters ed, no gun handling ed, no LEO/military experience, no skilled buddy spending significant time with them. When I go to a public range I usually spend the first hour helping folks how to put a bullet on target, how NOT to point a loaded gun at others on the range, how to zero a scope, how to hold a rifle, how to hold a handgun, how to load a magazine, how to unload a fixed magazine, how to open a revolver wheel, which bullets/shells to use with which firearms (really scary), etc etc etc at which point I realize I will never get any of my own stuff done with any comfort I will not get shot by one of this people and I leave.

We need at least the following regulation: A person in the US may only own or possess a firearm under five conditions (1) they can demonstrate basic weapons operation/safety based upon significant past experience; (2) they successfully complete an in person firearms operation and safety course; (3) have served (and been honorably discharged) from the armed services or law enforcement agency where firearms training was part of the job; (4) they are in the immediate presence and control of someone who meets one of the first 3 for the purpose of developing sufficient skills to meet #1; or (5) be a declared active member of a well regulated citizen militia that has formed to defend themselves from the government. Absolutely constitutional - even for those who are armed to revolt against the king.
 
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wllm

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It scares the heck out of me (and pisses me off) how many gun owners have no idea what they are doing. Never taught by dad/grandpa, no hunters ed, no gun handling ed, no LEO/military experience, no skilled buddy spending significant time with them. When I go to a public range I usually spend the first hour helping folks how to put a bullet on target, how NOT to point a loaded gun at others on the range, how to zero a scope, how to hold a rifle, how to hold a handgun, how to load a magazine, how to unload a fixed magazine, how to open a revolver wheel, which bullets/shells to use with which firearms (really scary), etc etc etc at which point I realize I will never get any of my own stuff done with any comfort I will not get shot by one of this people and I leave.

We need at least the following regulation: Any person in the US may only own or possess a firearm under five conditions (1) they can demonstrate basic weapons operation/safety based upon significant past experience; (2) the successfully complete an in person firearms operation and safety course; (3) have served (and been honorably discharged) from the armed services or law enforcement agency where firearms training was part of the job; (4) they are in the immediate presence and control of someone who meets one of the first 3 for the purpose of developing sufficient skills to meet #1; or (5) be a declared active member of a well regulated citizen militia that has formed to defend themselves from the government. Absolutely constitutional - even for those who are armed to revolt against the king.
I have to imagine in 1975 that would have passed 90 to 10 in the Senate.
 

BrentD

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...

There likely isn't a member on this forum who hasn't passed 1 if not multiple hunter's ed courses. Those all teach basic firearm handling.

Realty check a HUGE portion of firearm owners in the US never do that....

I agree with your assessment, but why does it matter? What earthly good will it do to prevent mass shootings? You want to make the shooter safer? Has the shooter ever shot someone by accident? I don't see anything here that will do a single thing to help with the issue as preceived by the public.

More likely a mass shooter without a gun handling/safety class will, one day, shoot himself in the foot (literally) on the way to his massacre because he didn't learn safe gun handling.
 

Nick87

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I agree with your assessment, but why does it matter? What earthly good will it do to prevent mass shootings? You want to make the shooter safer? Has the shooter ever shot someone by accident? I don't see anything here that will do a single thing to help with the issue as preceived by the public.

More likely a mass shooter without a gun handling/safety class will, one day, shoot himself in the foot (literally) on the way to his massacre because he didn't learn safe gun handling.
I think we just got off in the weeds there I don't believe wllm was saying that gun safety requirements for gun owners would in anyway curb mass shootings.
 

Bigjay73

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VikingsGuy

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I agree with your assessment, but why does it matter? What earthly good will it do to prevent mass shootings? You want to make the shooter safer? Has the shooter ever shot someone by accident? I don't see anything here that will do a single thing to help with the issue as preceived by the public.

More likely a mass shooter without a gun handling/safety class will, one day, shoot himself in the foot (literally) on the way to his massacre because he didn't learn safe gun handling.
The topic was originally broader than mass shootings. As originally posted, and sometimes discussed, suicide deaths, violent crime etc have been fodder. Accidents seem fair game too.
 
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BrentD

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The topic was originally broader than mass shootings. As originally posted, and sometimes discussed, suicide deaths, violent crime etc have been fodder. Accidents seem fair game too.
But accidents have to be the smallest portion of the pie I would guess. Maybe mass shootings are smaller, but probably not by much. Homicides of the intentional type are what drives public outcry and that is the problem that has to be addressed. Hunter safety classes, etc. will not help that in the slightest, so far as I can tell.

I don't think it would matter if every single accidental shooting were prevented. The public anger would not dampen one bit.
 

wllm

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I agree with your assessment, but why does it matter? What earthly good will it do to prevent mass shootings? You want to make the shooter safer? Has the shooter ever shot someone by accident? I don't see anything here that will do a single thing to help with the issue as preceived by the public.

More likely a mass shooter without a gun handling/safety class will, one day, shoot himself in the foot (literally) on the way to his massacre because he didn't learn safe gun handling.
It would only reduce them to the extent that it would be an extra hoop to jump throw, i.e. the Saturday night special law @VikingsGuy alluded to in his post. Hunters safety actually dissuades lots of folks from hunting, hence all the mentor rules that allow people to skip them for a season if they are hunting with a mentor... idea being give people a chance to see if they like hunting.

But accidents have to be the smallest portion of the pie I would guess.
Largest slice is suicide then homicide then accidents. I think we are at like 308 deaths in mass shootings at this point for 2022 (as defined by FBI), I think we average 500+ accidental deaths.

But at the same time... does anyone think hunter's safety is a bad thing? It's not voluntary.

But to your point, probably not moving the needle all that much on mass shootings.
 

VikingsGuy

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But accidents have to be the smallest portion of the pie I would guess. Maybe mass shootings are smaller, but probably not by much. Homicides of the intentional type are what drives public outcry and that is the problem that has to be addressed. Hunter safety classes, etc. will not help that in the slightest, so far as I can tell.

I don't think it would matter if every single accidental shooting were prevented. The public anger would not dampen one bit.
About 500 accidental deaths and about 100 "active shooter/mass shooter" deaths per year recently.

I wasn't saying this solves all or even most of the problems - but if we can't even keep gun owners from accidentally shooting themselves or friends/family then what can we do? I also wasn't talking about public hew and cry - that is a political situation where facts are irrelevant. I also think folks shrug their shoulders at suicide deaths and inner city gun violence - so society obviously isn't focusing on the actual harm - it is all drama based at this point.

Finally, I was not saying this is the only regulation I support - see the my original proposal or my old gun control survey post for what I would do if I were king. This was a bit tongue in cheek bare minimum we should at least be able to handle as a society.
 
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BrentD

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Finally, I was not saying this is the only regulation I support - see the my original proposal or my old gun control survey post for what I would do if I were king. This was a bit tongue in cheek bare minimum we should at least be able to handle as a society.

I thought your original proposal was just about as good at anything I have heard anywhere. Seriously, I couldn't improve on it. In my opinion, the shooting public needs to get behind something like that or much worse will happen to us down the road. We can't keep toeing the no-compromise line. Unfortunately, I doubt we could get a majority of gun-owners behind it, and I'm damn certain the NRA would not step up with something like that. So maybe a follow up discussion to this thread is a search to answer this question - How do we make anything constructive happen?
 

hank4elk

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I heard a good solution from Bill Burr.
You start with a single shot 22 and qualify. As an adult.
Then you get to handle a 6 shooter,22. And so on.

I also am a death penalty guy and think the qualifying rules need expanding,vastly. Rape & child molestation are 2.
Same with hardtime jailtime at hard labor for felons. No tv or phones. No more white collar resorts.
No more pot jail time or bread lefts.
Give a felon a gun and you join the felon. In jail. Put them to work.
 

hank4elk

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Oh and we rebuild a true mental health system, with funds taken from the Presidents Libraries & Trusts that dismantled them.
Plenty of dough in there. In both tribes.
 

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