A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides

[VikingsGuy]

What do you think should be done about the hard drugs?

I am not a fan of legalizing even marijuana frankly - I suggested it in my OP because at this point it is a foregone conclusion and it is just exacerbating a failed "war on drugs".

I don't know that this is an answer, but at this point, I would keep hard drugs illegal, target law enforcement toward the big players, and provide a lot of education and treatment resources. I also think mental health system improvements can help. A lot of drug addicts get to that point by self-medicating un-resolved mental health issues. I think the "hippy gets high for fun and is a lazy drag on society" narrative is probably a smaller part of the issue.

 

[VikingsGuy]

That pot is included in the same sentance as alcohol, firearms, and ammunition is ridiculous and shows that old biases die hard. It's a plant.

A very odd take.

 

[Dakotakid]

Just for once, stop the half-assed arguments and read something that may challenge your assumptions. Mental institutions were effectively torture chambers in much of America.

Bad institutions are just that, bad. It doesn’t mean all institutions are bad or that having no institutions is good.
Rather than fixing the bad institutions, he have kicked the problem out of sight underneath the overpasses. The situation is worse not better even though it emotionally feels good.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Bad institutions are just that, bad. It doesn’t mean all institutions are bad or that having no institutions is good.
Rather than fixing the bad institutions, he have kicked the problem out of sight underneath the overpasses. The situation is worse not better even though it emotionally feels good.

I agree completely. The context of my remarks was a post that suggested the "good old days" had it right.

 

[KB_]

Out of everything you suggested which one do you think will stop gun violence?
Age restrictions on ar 15s? Most gun violence is with a handgun and the age requirements are already 21
Background checks? We already perform those.

For those that forgot we have a basic human right to defend ourselves. The government doesn't grant us that right.

Just mind blowing how many people are ready to give up this or that just for some warm and fuzzy feeling that they did something when none of it will change anything. Real change would come from more fathers in the house. More morality being taught. Less victom mentality. Placing the blame where it belongs.

Make them take a quiz on gun safety before they can buy?

I mean at the very least you know if they can read or not.

 

[88man]

I guess I just want the ability to protect my family and myself in this common sense proposal. We all know how criminals don't break the law so I need the ability to carry and have what they allready have.
Good old AR and some semi pistols. See Ha ha why does one need a 50cal?? Even a 30 cal??
I'm guessing but maybe I average under 30 shots a year fired from centerfire rifles at game and over 1500 at the range target shooting and shotgun maybe similar or a little more sporting clays.

 

[TwistedSage]

A very odd take.

It has been mentioned numerous times in this thread and the why now thread that not violent drug offenders should not be sitting in jail and that problem may contribute to the other issues down the line. It has also been said numerous times that marijuana should be legal but that it should be regulated and taxed to death. All I'm saying is that pot is only associated with guns, alcohol and hard drugs because of old biases. Heres a fresh take, let poor people be able to grow thier own medicine without crushing them with penalties taxes or other regulation.

Why should marijuana be regulated along with guns and ammunition? That seems a more odd take to me. One of them you can grow in your garden next to tomatoes.

 

[VikingsGuy]

It has been mentioned numerous times in this thread and the why now thread that not violent drug offenders should not be sitting in jail and that problem may contribute to the other issues down the line. It has also been said numerous times that marijuana should be legal but that it should be regulated and taxed to death. All I'm saying is that pot is only associated with guns, alcohol and hard drugs because of old biases. Heres a fresh take, let poor people be able to grow thier own medicine without crushing them with penalties taxes or other regulation.

Why should marijuana be regulated along with guns and ammunition? That seems a more odd take to me. One of them you can grow in your garden next to tomatoes.

Same for psychedelic mushrooms? You can make homemade alcohol super easy too.

 

[4ohSick]

I guess I just want the ability to protect my family and myself in this common sense proposal. We all know how criminals don't break the law so I need the ability to carry and have what they allready have.
Good old AR and some semi pistols. See Ha ha why does one need a 50cal?? Even a 30 cal??
I'm guessing but maybe I average under 30 shots a year fired from centerfire rifles at game and over 1500 at the range target shooting and shotgun maybe similar or a little more sporting clays.

There are some interesting mental gymnastics in simultaneously making the arguments "most gun crimes are committed by handguns, banning AR's would do nothing to address gun deaths" and "I just want to protect myself and my family, so I need an AR to match the bad guys' firepower."

 

[Tiredofthebickering]

The components I suggested that would have the most impact on violence in my opinion are the mental health and economic funding items. Gun violence (suicide and handgun crime which are the bulk) is mostly a reflection of a lack of hope/opportunity. I said nothing about age restrictions.

A lot of my suggestions are clean-ups/process improvements to the current mess of a system. But, I now agree with some of the posters on this thread, that replacing purchase point background check with nationwide permit would be more efficient yet. I said nothing about AR-specific restrictions or age rules.

As for fathers in the house, I am not sure the data supports it - and there are plenty of men that are best not in the house.

I would like to see more data on this honestly. My guts tells me that having a father figure is better than not having a father figure. But I also acknowledge not all dads are effective/positive father figures and vice versa.

However, let's not throw out the "plenty of . . . " comments in the same sentence as wondering about the data. Anecdotally, the vast majority of the fathers I know are genuinely decent people trying to do the best for their kids/family. The fact that a portion of any group are poor examples of that group is irrelevant to the overall value of the remainder of the group. See, "lawyers are snakes . . . pastors are pedophiles . . . racists are white . . . young black men are murderous gang bangers . . . Muslims are terrorists etc."

Sure, within each of those groups, a portion of that group is guilty of the thing being accused. But another, usually significantly larger, portion of the group is completely innocent of that same thing. The fact that terrorists exist does not mean that Islam is a net negative overall. That fact that some pastors are pedophiles does not mean that Christianity/pastors are a net negative overall. When dealing with significantly large groups of anything, "plenty of. . . " can still represent an extraordinarily small percentage of the whole.

All of this makes me think about what @neffa3 said in the other thread, do we even really have a problem? Gun related deaths, including suicides, represent +/- 1.34% of all deaths in America as of 2020 (here and here) One could probably make the argument that suicides aren't really tragic for the individual as, in a sense, it is the ultimate expression of freedom. Sure, it hurts for the ones left to cope. But if you take any religious connections out of suicide, it is simply the outcome of the person's will for themselves.

Death is tragic; death of the young is particularly tragic. It does appear that gun related deaths have increased sharply amongst the 1 - 19 age group, but even that is heavily group towards males (85%+ here). And if you pull out the older teens who potentially know better or are involved some sort of illegal activity, the amount of suicides and homicides seem to drop significantly (over half) as well (here)

But all of this conversation is about the cause of a very small percentage of actual deaths. When you narrow it down further by removing suicides, the percentage gets even smaller. Our time would be much better spent trying to figure how to keep people from eating themselves to death considering that heart disease deaths outrank gun related death by a factor of greater than 10:1 (here). But let's be honest, Americans would be in uproar if we talked legislating the amount of calories in a 3x3 at In N Out (700+, or over 1/3 of daily recommendations for most, probably) or a Grande Caramel Ribbon Crunch Frappucino (nearly 500, for a drink) or a 12oz ribeye (+/- 1,000). As a matter of fact, laws or attempts at laws in these arenas have been shot down several times.

It's like I said before, it looks good to others to cry, pray, and attempt legislate gun violence into non-existence. There's no glamour in denying your kid ice cream, taking away their cell phone, or making them run around outside for a little while. And there's less glamour in getting off of my fat butt and denying myself an extra helping of pizza. All of those things are likely more beneficial to my family than making it harder for someone else to get a gun than it already is.

 

[TwistedSage]

Same for psychedelic mushrooms? You can make homemade alcohol super easy too.

I wasnt really figuring mushrooms into my previous post but sure, I still wouldn't see the need to correlate to arms and ammunition. Go ahead and google "crime statistics for psychedelic mushrooms" I don't really think mushrooms play into bigger picture overall whereas the criminalization of marijuana has let to countless families and communities being torn apart.

Not sure what point your making about alcohol other than it is a mind altering product that needs to me manufactured and yet it is legal to do so in your own home.

 

[woods89]

I would like to see more data on this honestly. My guts tells me that having a father figure is better than not having a father figure. But I also acknowledge not all dads are effective/positive father figures and vice versa.

However, let's not throw out the "plenty of . . . " comments in the same sentence as wondering about the data. Anecdotally, the vast majority of the fathers I know are genuinely decent people trying to do the best for their kids/family. The fact that a portion of any group are poor examples of that group is irrelevant to the overall value of the remainder of the group. See, "lawyers are snakes . . . pastors are pedophiles . . . racists are white . . . young black men are murderous gang bangers . . . Muslims are terrorists etc."

Sure, within each of those groups, a portion of that group is guilty of the thing being accused. But another, usually significantly larger, portion of the group is completely innocent of that same thing. The fact that terrorists exist does not mean that Islam is a net negative overall. That fact that some pastors are pedophiles does not mean that Christianity/pastors are a net negative overall. When dealing with significantly large groups of anything, "plenty of. . . " can still represent an extraordinarily small percentage of the whole.

All of this makes me think about what @neffa3 said in the other thread, do we even really have a problem? Gun related deaths, including suicides, represent +/- 1.34% of all deaths in America as of 2020 (here and here) One could probably make the argument that suicides aren't really tragic for the individual as, in a sense, it is the ultimate expression of freedom. Sure, it hurts for the ones left to cope. But if you take any religious connections out of suicide, it is simply the outcome of the person's will for themselves.

Death is tragic; death of the young is particularly tragic. It does appear that gun related deaths have increased sharply amongst the 1 - 19 age group, but even that is heavily group towards males (85%+ here). And if you pull out the older teens who potentially know better or are involved some sort of illegal activity, the amount of suicides and homicides seem to drop significantly (over half) as well (here)

But all of this conversation is about the cause of a very small percentage of actual deaths. When you narrow it down further by removing suicides, the percentage gets even smaller. Our time would be much better spent trying to figure how to keep people from eating themselves to death considering that heart disease deaths outrank gun related death by a factor of greater than 10:1 (here). But let's be honest, Americans would be in uproar if we talked legislating the amount of calories in a 3x3 at In N Out (700+, or over 1/3 of daily recommendations for most, probably) or a Grande Caramel Ribbon Crunch Frappucino (nearly 500, for a drink) or a 12oz ribeye (+/- 1,000). As a matter of fact, laws or attempts at laws in these arenas have been shot down several times.

It's like I said before, it looks good to others to cry, pray, and attempt legislate gun violence into non-existence. There's no glamour in denying your kid ice cream, taking away their cell phone, or making them run around outside for a little while. And there's less glamour in getting off of my fat butt and denying myself an extra helping of pizza. All of those things are likely more beneficial to my family than making it harder for someone else to get a gun than it already is.

Great post. I've wondered about many of the same things.

How many lives would we save if everyone had to blow into a device on their steering column before their vehicle would start?

 

[4ohSick]

I would like to see more data on this honestly. My guts tells me that having a father figure is better than not having a father figure. But I also acknowledge not all dads are effective/positive father figures and vice versa.

However, let's not throw out the "plenty of . . . " comments in the same sentence as wondering about the data. Anecdotally, the vast majority of the fathers I know are genuinely decent people trying to do the best for their kids/family. The fact that a portion of any group are poor examples of that group is irrelevant to the overall value of the remainder of the group. See, "lawyers are snakes . . . pastors are pedophiles . . . racists are white . . . young black men are murderous gang bangers . . . Muslims are terrorists etc."

Sure, within each of those groups, a portion of that group is guilty of the thing being accused. But another, usually significantly larger, portion of the group is completely innocent of that same thing. The fact that terrorists exist does not mean that Islam is a net negative overall. That fact that some pastors are pedophiles does not mean that Christianity/pastors are a net negative overall. When dealing with significantly large groups of anything, "plenty of. . . " can still represent an extraordinarily small percentage of the whole.

All of this makes me think about what @neffa3 said in the other thread, do we even really have a problem? Gun related deaths, including suicides, represent +/- 1.34% of all deaths in America as of 2020 (here and here) One could probably make the argument that suicides aren't really tragic for the individual as, in a sense, it is the ultimate expression of freedom. Sure, it hurts for the ones left to cope. But if you take any religious connections out of suicide, it is simply the outcome of the person's will for themselves.

Death is tragic; death of the young is particularly tragic. It does appear that gun related deaths have increased sharply amongst the 1 - 19 age group, but even that is heavily group towards males (85%+ here). And if you pull out the older teens who potentially know better or are involved some sort of illegal activity, the amount of suicides and homicides seem to drop significantly (over half) as well (here)

But all of this conversation is about the cause of a very small percentage of actual deaths. When you narrow it down further by removing suicides, the percentage gets even smaller. Our time would be much better spent trying to figure how to keep people from eating themselves to death considering that heart disease deaths outrank gun related death by a factor of greater than 10:1 (here). But let's be honest, Americans would be in uproar if we talked legislating the amount of calories in a 3x3 at In N Out (700+, or over 1/3 of daily recommendations for most, probably) or a Grande Caramel Ribbon Crunch Frappucino (nearly 500, for a drink) or a 12oz ribeye (+/- 1,000). As a matter of fact, laws or attempts at laws in these arenas have been shot down several times.

It's like I said before, it looks good to others to cry, pray, and attempt legislate gun violence into non-existence. There's no glamour in denying your kid ice cream, taking away their cell phone, or making them run around outside for a little while. And there's less glamour in getting off of my fat butt and denying myself an extra helping of pizza. All of those things are likely more beneficial to my family than making it harder for someone else to get a gun than it already is.

Heart disease, while a popular comparison, really only works as a comparison to suicide - there are societal costs and emotional damage to family/friends, but the person dying chose their lifestyle. Kids being shot in school produces such a guttural response because, not only did they not choose it, they are legally required to be in the place where harm is brought on them. Drunk drivers is a better comparison, since the victims are most often innocent, but billions is spent each year on making cars safer in crashes, enforcement against drunk driving, and campaigns to discourage it. And data supports those efforts have made small but measurable gains.

Certain rare cancers, genetic conditions, and other diseases kill only a few people a year, yet receive tons of research and funding to try to eradicate them. Gang violence is a tougher one to address, but I refuse to buy the argument that mass shootings are rare enough that we just have to accept them. Do nothing is not the answer Americans accept for other rarities and I don't think it should be for this.

 

[VikingsGuy]

One could probably make the argument that suicides aren't really tragic for the individual as, in a sense, it is the ultimate expression of freedom.

#absurd

 

[VikingsGuy]

I wasnt really figuring mushrooms into my previous post but sure, I still wouldn't see the need to correlate to arms and ammunition. Go ahead and google "crime statistics for psychedelic mushrooms" I don't really think mushrooms play into bigger picture overall whereas the criminalization of marijuana has let to countless families and communities being torn apart.

Not sure what point your making about alcohol other than it is a mind altering product that needs to me manufactured and yet it is legal to do so in your own home.

I was just following your line of thinking that growing your own should make it undoubtedly legal.

 

[Jasher]

Make them take a quiz on gun safety before they can buy?

I mean at the very least you know if they can read or not.

You already have to read the 4473 and answer questions.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Make them take a quiz on gun safety before they can buy?

I mean at the very least you know if they can read or not.

When did literacy become a requirement to exercise a constitutional right? I think we tried that once before . . . .

 

[Tiredofthebickering]

#absurd

Oh come on now. How is that absurd? Most firearm suicides are amongst the elderly, aged 75+ (here page 17) They lived 75+ years on the earth and chose their own way out. Is that more of a tragedy that dying of a heart attack or stroke (or Covid) while laying a hospital bed? And, again, tragedy for whom? Certainly not the dearly departed.

I'm sure there were other more absurd parts of that long post. I've been a good boy with all of my posts; I don't deserve this kind of response.

Edited to add: To be honest, I'm a devout Christian and my core set a beliefs means that the soul of a suicidal person will likely spend eternity in Hell. Within my own spiritual beliefs, that is a tragedy. But from a secular point of view I think there is an argument to made against that being a tragedy.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Oh come on now. How is that absurd? Most firearm suicides are amongst the elderly, aged 75+ (here page 17) They lived 75+ years on the earth and chose their own way out. Is that more of a tragedy that dying of a heart attack or stroke (or Covid) while laying a hospital bed? And, again, tragedy for whom? Certainly not the dearly departed.

I'm sure there were other more absurd parts of that long post. I've been a good boy with all of my posts; I don't deserve this kind of response.

Edited to add: To be honest, I'm a devout Christian and my core set a beliefs means that the soul of a suicidal person will likely spend eternity in Hell. Within my own spiritual beliefs, that is a tragedy. But from a secular point of view I think there is an argument to made against that being a tragedy.

Less than 10% of suicides are over the age of 75. Just about half of suicides are 34-65yo, and about a third is 12-34yo. On a per 100,000 basis rate of suicide of 65+ is less than that of age groups 24-65. (https://www.sprc.org/scope/age) You have to go to the small subset of 75+ men to get the statistic that makes this a logical end-of-life choice as you suggest.

Suicide, and the suffering that leads up to it, is a tragedy, not a pinnacle of freedom. You have a lot to learn about mental health.

 

[Jasher]

The components I suggested that would have the most impact on violence in my opinion are the mental health and economic funding items. Gun violence (suicide and handgun crime which are the bulk) is mostly a reflection of a lack of hope/opportunity. I said nothing about age restrictions.

A lot of my suggestions are clean-ups/process improvements to the current mess of a system. But, I now agree with some of the posters on this thread, that replacing purchase point background check with nationwide permit would be more efficient yet. I said nothing about AR-specific restrictions or age rules.

As for fathers in the house, I am not sure the data supports it - and there are plenty of men that are best not in the house.

Most gun crime is committed by young black males. The single parent rate of blacks is between 70-80%. You don't see a connection?

Purchase point background checks are way better than a nation wide permit. A background check is only good for 30 days for what you wanted to purchase at the time of the check. Case in point a guy came in over the weekend had just gotten his permit within the last month. Still had to run a background check and he was denied.

Everyone is a law abiding citizen until they aren't. No one knows who isn't going to be or what they are going to do.

It wasn't you who said about ar's but age restrictions and "high capacity magazines ". None of that makes a difference when it takes a second to change out a mag.

I do think that whoever owns the gun should also be responsible for it. If your gun is used in a crime because you didn't secure it you should be charged for negligence. There would be exceptions to this like you leave your gun in your locked car because you are somewhere that doesn't allow guns. Then someone breaks in and steals it.