A 377+ whitetail.

BOHNTR

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TOM:

I've watched this thread develop and have noticed a few things. With all due respect, you sound like a sales man trying to "sell us" that this deer is the real deal and should be recognized as a "potential" world record. Well, maybe for SCI, as they accept any and all barn yard animals. Maybe in Texas that's the norm, but not with us.

What people are trying to express to you here, is the deer is less than real in our opinions! Although it is a living creature, it is a pen raised animal which has had its life altered due to an un-natural living condition. As a result, it has produced altered horn development. It's that simple, you're NOT going to change peoples opinions here.

On a side note, they look great and make us all dream of seeing one like that in the WILD. Of course when I saw a huge set of Mule Deer antlers that were carved out of wood, I had the same feeling.
Thanks for posting the picture for us and good luck to you.

BOHNTR )))------------->
 

Washington Hunter

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Kind of like hunting grazing cattle, eh, as some of these people say
Lets see a picture of the Montana and Colorado state P&Y records, eh?
Dale and I will just go see him at the Hunter Extravaganza show this summer, eh Dale.
the way some of you guys think on some hunting issues, eh?
Tom, you're not originally from Canada, are you? :D
 

OSOK

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Deer can swim!!! :D You can't use that as a comparison. If the deer wants to leave the island! It still has that option. The fact of whether or not he becomes shark bait, or finds land is not even a argumentable point.

Seriously Tom,

You really are a nice guy! That won't get you far w/ a bunch of western deer hunting snobs like this, though!!


Besides. I think your post is going for the record! That should be something to be proud of. ;)

How did you like that last set of pictures???


WH, You read my mind!!! :D
 

Tom

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BOHNTR, I can appreciate your post coming from someone reading the thread. That deer is a living world record, not other deer that big. He won't be recorded in B&C or P&Y, but he's the biggest deer I know of, so in that sense, he is a world record.

Its non-trivial to get one that big, Buzz was reflecting on that in his post.
WH, I picked up on the eh from some Canadian posts. Its not a bad phrase. ... eh?

OSOK, nice deer pictures you sent me. You should post a story on them, if you haven't.

I've seen deer jump high fences, I don't which is more likely, swimming off an island or jumping a fence, for all practical purposes they are both restricting movements. I base my perception of the wildness of an animal more on behavior than on simply being restricted somehow. The distinction, to say one restriction keeps animals wild and one does not, just seems like really fuzzy thinking, and erroneous.

No one here seems to address that point adequately and that seems more like an emotional denial, than a reasoned thought.

We have this thread every year, the last several years. We'll probably have it again. Its interesting to see how different people think about these things, so I hope people will continue to really give the questions some thought and post responses.
 

Q2Dude

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TOM,

Why is it that he will not be recognized by P&Y or B&C? I think we know the answer, but I just want to hear a Texan say it. :D Just funnin' with ya!
 

Woodrow

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http://www.alsdeerland.com/

That buck, "High Roller", is from Ohio.

So I guess all bucks killed in Ohio are pen raised? Not even close. The midwest produces the biggest whitetail bucks in the country, and there are deer breeders in the midwest. Point being: Those deer breeders are not why the deer in the midwest are so big right?

I don't understand why so many of you guys from other states have such a hate on for Texas? I am the first to admit, there are too many ranches here that are high fenced. But it is foolish to stereotype the whole state of Texas as a Non-Fair-Chase State, because it isn't. The high fenced places get the attention in the magazines and on TV because that is where the money is......and that is a shame, but that is the way it is. Webb County in South Texas is one of the top B&C producing counties in the country, and as everyone knows, to qualify it has to be from low fenced land.

There is good hunting all over our country, can't we just leave it at that and appreciate the different areas for different reasons? If you can't find a reason to appreciate Texas, then it's your loss. I think you would feel different if you knew the Texas that I know!

As far as the mule deer stuff, it's not apples to apples. Our mule deer are Desert mule deer......they are smaller than Rocky Mt. mulies......that can't be argued. Yes, the 288 from Texas is ugly, but so are a lot of high scoring NT.

Hey, all Tom did to start was post a pic of a mammoth whitetail that he thought outdoorsman would like to see. There was no secret made about it being a pen raised buck. When the link states, "he discovered the...", I don't think they were attempting to make it seem like he walked 30 miles through a blizzard to find the buck. The buck is in Ohio and the article is from Texas..... Then Tom posted the pic of the #1 P&Y buck from Texas.....killed off public land just to show you an example of how not all the good bucks in Texas are from high fences. I don't agree with everything he has said, the island and corral thing don't hold enough water to me, but how what he did at the beginning of this thread equates to being bashed, I have no idea? It's not like he called your mom a man......
And why some of you have such a hate on for Texas, I have no idea either?

I think it's a shame, and all a result of miscommunication.
 

Tom

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Q2DUDE, He's not been shot yet. haha. They way some here argue, if they release him and shoot him in a pasture then that makes him free ranging. Maybe he will be in P&Y or B&C someday. They don't currently recognize high fence animals although P&Y has animals from the past still in the book from high fence places back when they used to judge on a place by place basis. I don't know enough history of B&C to know if they also have that.

OK, someone give a counter argument to the coral with food, cover and water and the island example. A deer can jump a fence, they can swim the ocean, but I say for all practical experiences both are similar restricted areas.

What's the difference? Give your answer. I think this fence restriction making animals not wild is a over simplified defn. for making animals not wild, but apparently some others think differently. Please explain why.

Like, if we put a wild lion in a high fence area are you going in there, thinking he's not wild? Are you saying that too? I say he's still wild. When does he not become wild, that's another way to ask it? If we let him out again, does he get wild again? If he walks jumps in, is he not wild, then he jumps out and he's wild again. Deer do that too, jump in and out, etc.
 

Washington Hunter

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IMO, as far as the whitetail deer go, it's not so much the fence that makes them not wild...it's the artificial conditions that go along with the fence. It's the idea that they are being raised and managed in the same way a rancher raises cattle.
 

OSOK

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Tom,

Case and point. Nobody is arguing whether or not a penned deer is "Wild" or not. The argument stands in that, yes, somebody grew this freak of a buck. But, it was not grown in a fair chase matter of fact... No animal killed inside of a high fence is considered, "fair chase". To me as a hunter, there is nothing impressive about growing a deer in a controlled environment of any kind!

Is he an impressive animal! Sure. Does he impress me. Hardly!!!

Also, I never seen a deer jump a high fence!!! Chit, I've never seen a high fence. :eek: Thank god!!! I have seen em' swim though, and thats the god honest truth. :D

Earlier you stated something about the elk in Jackson. I'd have to go back and read what you said. These animals are truely wild. They spend the majority of the year, living and dieing w/ what nature and man deals them in a totally uncontrolled environment.
 

Q2Dude

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"Like, if we put a wild lion in a high fence area are you going in there, thinking he's not wild? Are you saying that too? I say he's still wild. When does he not become wild, that's another way to ask it? If we let him out again, does he get wild again? If he walks jumps in, is he not wild, then he jumps out and he's wild again. Deer do that too, jump in and out, etc."


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! My friggin head is spinning after that one! LMAO!
 

Greenhorn

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How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? Fruitcake.
 

JoseCuervo

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Tom,

Follow the links that were posted about your "world record" buck....

Raising Whitetails in the Kitchen....

Who has ever looked into the big, brown, gentle eyes of a new-born fawn without falling in love with this shy creature of the woodlands? Perhaps you have dreamed of owning one of these beautiful animals as a pet.
Al's Deer Hill understands exactly what it takes to make a pet of one of nature's shy creatures.
When choosing a fawn, it is important to consider both the health and temperament of its parents.

Why not surprise your children this year by giving them a very special pet! Most fawns are born in June and July.


Yep, only somebody from Texas could be impressed by a deer raised in a kitchen, and then think they had a trophy when they shot their kid's pet. :rolleyes: I doubt shooting deer in Texas would be any more challenging than shooting your children's dog in the backyard. Just do me a favor, and don't post pictures after you shoot Fido... :(
 

Tom

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People around here don't even have fido on the kitchen sink. Elkgunner, you doubt hunting deer in Texas, based on a pet deer in Ohio. Its another example of how confusing these issues are to some of you people. It doesn't mean many Texas deer are any more like that kitchen deer than an any Idaho deer is.

Is your operating definition of being wild is equivalent to being free to roam wherever, basically, is that it?

I would like someone against high fences to have a definition of wild that makes some sense, what is it? Some of your lives are so simple, you don't need one is the way it looks from here. Unless you give me one, you're like the fruitcake. What is it, do you have a working one, a definition of wild?
 

Woodrow

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Originally posted by ElkGunner:


Yep, only somebody from Texas could be impressed by a deer raised in a kitchen, and then think they had a trophy when they shot their kid's pet. :rolleyes: I doubt shooting deer in Texas would be any more challenging than shooting your children's dog in the backyard. Just do me a favor, and don't post pictures after you shoot Fido... :(
Elkgunner, that comment just blows my mind. Can you really read what you wrote and say that it makes sense and holds water?

I would still like to know why so many out of staters think Texas is as ridiculous as you make it sound? I really would like a legitimate answer on this, not some cheap shot, sacastic comment, or blown out of proportion comment.
 

Tom

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Washington Hunter, You don't like wildlife treated like cattle, ok, I understand that. Even the state of Montana allows "wildlife" to be managed in "agricultural" contexts, see this law.
*********************
Montana Code
15-1-101. Definitions. ... when terms mentioned in this section are used ... they are defined in the following manner:
(a) The term "agricultural" refers to:
(i) ...
(ii) the raising of domestic animals and wildlife in domestication or a captive environment.
*******************

There are issues with animal management best dealt with in agricultural departments and issues with animals best dealt with in parks and wildlife departments. I'm no expert, as to which go where, but its easy enough to understand. I imagine agricultural and wildlife departments work together in every state for the good of wildlife and other animals.

This legal definition allows that wildlife be raised in domestication and captive environments.
It doesn't mean that they cease to be wildlife. I assure you, many wildlife, even in a cage, remain wild, e.g. a bear. Its the behavior of the animal, more than the environment, that makes me call it wild.
 
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