7mm-08?

[MTLabrador]

One of the topics I have discussed at length with the ballisticians at Barnes are the velocities required for excellent bullet expansion.

I will call them soon and get back to you about this bullet at the velocity of 2650, which is just under max. The Barnes MAX Range X bullet with a BC of .439 should be just fine at 400 yards plus.

But I will go right to the horse's mouth about this.



Thank you for your post

It all depends on what Barnes considers to be “expansion”. But a 160 tsx out of a 7-08 isn’t giving anything near what I consider to be enough expansion compared to say a partition or ballistic tip.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

It all depends on what Barnes considers to be “expansion”. But a 160 tsx out of a 7-08 isn’t giving anything near what I consider to be enough expansion compared to say a partition or ballistic tip.

I emailed one of ballisticians at Barnes. They near always get back to me in a few days. And the better 160 grain bullet would be TTSXBT. The extra "T" stands for Plastic tipped which facilitates full expansion at lower velocity, plus the BT means boattail which increases BC and helps maintain velocity for full expansion at longer range and lower velocity.

After Hear back I will get back to you.

 

[Hammerxc]

Big fan of the 7mm-08, used in MN/ND for white-tail and MT for white-tail and mule deer.

140 gr Accubond, have also used 139 gr SST. Plenty of deer taken around 200-335 yards with my group.

I've also hunted with 30-06, 308 Win, 300 Win mag, and recommend the 7mm-08 for new hunters. I believe it's the best of the cartridges based on the 308 Win case.

jmho

 

[Brad]

I find it amusing that somehow the the 7-08 is "a whole bigger and better step up" to the 6.5 CM. The 6.5 CM runs faster than the 6.5.54 MS in its day with all bullet weights - a big game cartridges on par with the 7x57's reputation (which is the 7mm-08's slightly bigger brother). Hell, Charles Sheldon used the 6.5x54 to take 100's of head of Alaskan game, including dozens of grizzlies, but somehow the 7mm-08 is "a whole bigger and better step up."

When anyone starts quoting energy tables, I know they don't have much experience, or are lost in the mists of time. Anyone with a bit of experience knows energy doesn't kill animals... enough velocity to open an expanding bullet put in the right place is what kills game.

While mono's have the edge on penetration, I've found that lead core bullets that shrapnel (which penetrate less) do a quicker job of killing. I'll take that over pure penetration. IF that were the ultimate, we'd shoot FMJ's.

I've taken elk with all sorts of cartridges, from the 7mm-08 and 270 up through the 300 Mag's and 338 WM. Based on this conversation the 338 WM should be "a whole bigger and better step up" over the 7mm-08. But I've not found that to be the case. So how can that be true of the 6.5 CM?

Experience can be long, but narrow, and the understanding of that experience can be colored by our preconceived ideas and prejudices.

Here's a bull I took with a 7mm-08 and one 150 Ballistic Tip. It died faster than any elk I've ever shot.



Here's a bull I shot with a 338 WM and a 210 NP... it took a finisher:



The 7-08 is "a whole bigger and better step up" than the 338 WM, right?

 

[mtmuley]

While mono's have the edge on penetration, I've found that lead core bullets that shrapnel (which penetrate less) do a quicker job of killing. I'll take that over pure penetration. IF that were the ultimate, we'd shoot FMJ's.

You can't compare today's modern mono bullets to a "FMJ" as you call it. mtmuley

 

[Hammerxc]

I find it amusing that somehow the the 7-08 is "a whole bigger and better step up" to the 6.5 CM. The 6.5 CM runs faster than the 6.5.54 MS in its day with all bullet weights - a big game cartridges on par with the 7x57's reputation (which is the 7mm-08's slightly bigger brother). Hell, Charles Sheldon used the 6.5x54 to take 100's of head of Alaskan game, including dozens of grizzlies, but somehow the 7mm-08 is "a whole bigger and better step up."

When anyone starts quoting energy tables, I know they don't have much experience, or are lost in the mists of time. Anyone with a bit of experience knows energy doesn't kill animals... enough velocity to open an expanding bullet put in the right place is what kills game.

While mono's have the edge on penetration, I've found that lead core bullets that shrapnel (which penetrate less) do a quicker job of killing. I'll take that over pure penetration. IF that were the ultimate, we'd shoot FMJ's.

I've taken elk with all sorts of cartridges, from the 7mm-08 and 270 up through the 300 Mag's and 338 WM. Based on this conversation the 338 WM should be "a whole bigger and better step up" over the 7mm-08. But I've not found that to be the case. So how can that be true of the 6.5 CM?

Experience can be long, but narrow, and the understanding of that experience can be colored by our preconceived ideas and prejudices.

Here's a bull I took with a 7mm-08 and one 150 Ballistic Tip. It died faster than any elk I've ever shot.



Here's a bull I shot with a 338 WM and a 210 NP... it took a finisher:



The 7-08 is "a whole bigger and better step up" than the 338 WM, right?

The 6.5mm CM and 7mm-08 get there differently, but performance wise are close. Generally not enough real world differences to argue over (but, hey what else is a hunting forum for ).
For deer I'd take either one w/o a thought.

And as the old adage goes, "It's the Indian, not the arrow".

 

[Mustangs Rule]

It all depends on what Barnes considers to be “expansion”. But a 160 tsx out of a 7-08 isn’t giving anything near what I consider to be enough expansion compared to say a partition or ballistic tip.

To Mt. Labrador,

Here is the data relative to our discussion about the 7mm-08 and Barnes 160 all copper bullets.

The maximum velocity I found for these bullets in a 7mm-08 was just under 2,700/sec.

I have been having great accuracy and velocity results in my 308 with Barnes bullets using AA2520, The Camp Perry Powder designed for the 308 case. I’d would try that powder loading for the 7mm-08 first.

So, the velocity I offered to the ballistician at Barnes was 2,650’/sec. for these two 160 grain bullets in the 7mm-08. Other factors I gave were 70 degrees temperature and one mile high for elevation.

The 160 grain 7mmTSX bullet does not have a super high BC. 392 still, starting at 2,650 it will reliably open fully at 300 yards going at 2,100’/sec. It has almost 1,600-foot pound of energy, still “Elk-Able”!

Their premium Long-Range X 160 grain Barnes bullet needs a 1/8 twist in the 7mm-08. It has a BC over just over .600 and will open reliably out to 800 yards.

At 500 yards it is very “Elk-Able” delivering over 1,500-foot. pounds of energy from a truly superior bullet that loses no weight. In terms of fight, Barnes bullets are like having “Bruce Lee come out of your barrel”. All muscle, no fat, no pieces falling off.

Decades ago, I used the bullets you used and liked so much. They were the cutting edge once. On big wild boar however, and even medium sized ones, those bullets fell to pieces and did not penetrate when hitting the thick, large cartilaginous shoulder plate. These boar were not the little spud pigs guys are shooting in Texas with .223’s.

Over 35 years ago Mountain Lion hunting was banned in California and as their population skyrocketed. My experience has been that those latent true Russian Wild Boar genes began expressing themselves again. True wild boar co-evolved with tigers. They have set my baseline.

Also, I lived in Wyoming and was near exclusively hunting antelope in the high mountain meadows of the Grizzly thick Wind River Range. I began using Barnes original then for my 7x57 and for my 270. Those 180 grain .277 Barnes Original bullets with a SD over .300 allowed my 270 step up to a minimum round I felt comfortable being with in grizzly country before I was carrying bear spray.

That bullet was an armored beast itself. It never fell apart even on the shoulder plate of huge mature Wild Boar. Honest, I have experienced lesser bullets glance off that natural armor on angled shots.

No American bullet and ammunition manufacturer has done more research and development than Barnes. They have not merely improved upon the old copper cup and core model, they have taken bullet design and production into an entirely new universe.

Before going further let me offer Barnes a compliment by way of comparison.

Barnes is to bullets, what Sturm-Ruger was to firearms.

I grew up in Connecticut, our country’s signature firearms manufacturing state. Colt, Winchester, Marlin, Mossberg, Charter Arms, and then along came Sturm-Ruger.

In 1949 S-R came out with their revolutionary ,22 auto loading pistol and after 75 years of stellar service, this has led to the Mark IV .22 which sets the gold standard for accuracy.

Next, Sturm-Ruger really got investment casting nailed down and the rest was firearms history, with one innovation after another producing many firearms that became legends.

S-R really has been upright, and so the same for Barnes. They pioneered monolithic all copper bullets.

There was no road map, Barnes blazed the trail then refined it.

Barnes is committed to innovation and is constantly improving their products. Often they have changed bullet ogives, which means finding new COAL, otherwise pinpoint accuracy can suffer greatly.

So many hunters seem to have a case of “Barnes Ancient History” and are stuck on past issues, real or not, about how well Barnes bullets performed. Long ago I heard of over-penetration issues and bullets not opening up. I have never had any of these problems, but I do my homework and rely heavily on Barnes experts and their cheerfully given advice. They have near identical bullets designed to open at different speeds.

Also reloading Barnes bullets requires a new learning curve, but again the team at Barnes is so knowledgeable and so willing to help. I found that to be true personally as a hunter and also as former licensed guide. There are no mis-fires with Barnes.

Bottom line, read the great reviews from African Professional Hunters about Barnes bullets. Why would any hunter want bullets that fall to pieces, large or small. And all those, dozens even a hundred or more tiny easily digested pieces of lead go into the meat and get eaten. Yuchh

I’ll stick with what I have come to think of as “Barnes Bruce Lee bullets”; all muscle, no fat, clean and lean with no toxic pieces falling off upon impact.

Thank you for your post.

Mustangs Rule