.308 Barnes TSX on elk?

[Calif. Hunter]

I have "heard" (doesn't that always scare you? ) that you can step down in bullet weight when you go to a solid copper bullet like the Barnes Triple Shock. So for a .300 Wthby round to use on elk, would you stick with a 180 gr or step down to a 165 or even a 150 gr?

 

[Washington Hunter]

I'm going to try the 168 TSX in my 30-06, but with the Weatherby I think I'd go with the 180. Not that the 168 wouldn't work, but I don't think you're gaining anything, other than a little less recoil, and if that's what you're wanting then I suppose that would be a good enough reason to go with the lighter bullet. But for performance on game I would think the 180 would be your best bet.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Why did you pick the 168 over the 165? The only difference I can see is the 3 gr of weight and the fact that it looks like there are more grooves on the 165 gr - less bearing surface, less friction, more velocity?

 

[Washington Hunter]

Hmm, I dont even know why I picked the 168 over the 165. I guess because I didn't even know there was a 165 in the TSX available. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I've got another thing to ponder now.

 

[snake river rufus]

I have "heard" (doesn't that always scare you? ) that you can step down in bullet weight when you go to a solid copper bullet like the Barnes Triple Shock. So for a .300 Wthby round to use on elk, would you stick with a 180 gr or step down to a 165 or even a 150 gr?

I tend to think that that is a true statement(step down in bullet weight) A recovered 165 'X' bullet will weigh about what a recovered 180 partition. I don't see any harm in using a 165 TSX for elk from the Whby case. but to be honest, if I were hunting on crowded, public ground. I would go with a heavier bullet no matter what design.
edited for typo/srr

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Rufus - I agree and would probably use my .338 on crowded public land.

WH - I was just looking at the 2 bullets at Midway USA, and the 168 gr Triple Shocks are 50 cents more than the 165 gr. I have no idea why Barnes would bother to make 2 bullets so close in weight. As I said, the 165 looks like it has at least one more groove than the 168 gr version.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Maybe I will email Barnes and inquire as to what the difference is between the 165 and 168, other than the obvious slight difference in weight.

 

[Washington Hunter]

I found this on the Barnes website:

Q. Are the 165-grain and 168-grain XLC and 168-grain Triple-Shock X-Bullets really match-grade bullets?

A. The 165-grain XLC has a secant ogive and the new 168-grain XLC BT and 168-grain Triple shock XBT have a tangent ogive that delivers superb accuracy. The 168-grain XLC BT and 168-grain Triple-Shock XBT are premium, highly effective hunting bullets – the best of both worlds.

It doesn't specifically mention the 165 grain TSX, but on the website I also noticed that is a new bullet for 2006. So maybe both the 165 XLC and TSX have a secant ogive, while the 168's have a tangent ogive. Somehow, apparently the tangent ogive is more accurate? That's what I'm getting out of their statement, anyway. I don't really know the difference between a tangent and secant ogive, although I know it has to do with the geometry of the bullet.

 

[snake river rufus]

from knowledgerush
Ogive
In ballistics or aerodynamics, an ogive is a pointed, curved surface used to form the approximately streamlined nose of a bullet, shell, missile or aircraft.
The traditional or secant ogive is a surface of revolution of the same curve that forms a Gothic arch; that is, a circular arc, of greater radius than the cylindrical section ("shank"), is drawn from the edge of the shank until it intercepts the axis.

If this arc is drawn so that it meets the shank at zero angle (that is, the distance of the centre of the arc from the axis, plus the radius of the shank, equals the radius of the arc), then it is called a tangential or spitzer ogive. This is a very common ogive for high velocity (supersonic) rifle bullets.
A secant ogive of sharpness


The sharpness of this ogive is expressed by the ratio of its radius to the diameter of the cylinder; a value of one half being a hemispherical dome, and larger values being progressively pointier. Values of 4 to 10 are commonly used in rifles, with 6 being the most common.

Another common ogive for bullets is the elliptical ogive. This is a curve very similar to the spitzer ogive, except that the circular arc is replaced by an ellipse defined in such a way that it meets the axis at exactly 90°. This gives a somewhat rounded nose regardless of the sharpness ratio. An elliptical ogive is normally described in terms of the ratio of the length of the ogive to the diameter of the shank. A ratio of one half would be, once again, a hemisphere. Values close to 1 are common in practice. Elliptical ogives are mainly used in pistol bullets.

From Merriam-Websters online
tangent

To select an entry, click on it.
tangent[1,adjective]tangent[2,noun]tangent plane

Main Entry: 1tan·gent
Pronunciation: -j&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin tangent-, tangens, present participle of tangere to touch; perhaps akin to Old English thaccian to touch gently, stroke
1 a : meeting a curve or surface in a single point if a sufficiently small interval is considered <straight line tangent to a curve> b (1) : having a common tangent line at a point <tangent curves> (2) : having a common tangent plane at a point <tangent surfaces>

also from M-W online
secant

Main Entry: se·cant
Pronunciation: 'sE-"kant, -k&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin secant-, secans, from Latin, present participle of secare to cut -- more at SAW
1 : a straight line cutting a curve at two or more points -- see CIRCLE illustration
2 : a straight line drawn from the center of a circle through one end of a circular arc to a tangent drawn from the other end of the arc
3 a : a trigonometric function that for an acute angle is the ratio of the hypotenuse of a right triangle of which the angle is considered part and the leg adjacent to the angle b : a trigonometric function sec θ that is the reciprocal of the cosine for all real numbers θ for which the cosine is not zero and that is exactly equal to the secant of an angle of measure θ in radians
The tangent ogive makes the bullet a very small bit longer. Altho in this situation I suspect that the difference is just picking fly droppings out of the pepper

 

[krshunter]

For what it's worth, I am shooting an .300 WSM and before handloading i emailed Barnes to get their recommendation between the 165gr., 168gr., and 180gr. XLC. THey told me I could step down in weight and would probably get better accuracy out of the 168gr. bullet. The added benefit is the little flatter trajectory vs. the 180gr. bullet. Have been shooting them for two years now, I'm getting 5/8" groups at 100yds. from my Kimber 8400 and I have had two one shot mule deer kills and two one shot elk kills ranging from 125yds. to 300yds. I have been extremely happy with this bullet so far. Good luck in your decision.

 

[T Bone]

my vote is if its accurate, shoot it. Any decent bullet between 150 and 220 grains will smoke anything on the continent if placement is good.

My father who has been a 1 rifle-1 load type guy for the last 40 years (300 WBY 200 grn partition) recently dropped the partitions and switched to 150 grain interbonds. He says its more shootable at his age.

 

[1_pointer]

John Barsness tests show that a X penetrates like a Partition 1.2 times heavier. Thus, a 165gr X = 198gr Partition. Pretty good company. With the BC of the 165 that thing will be FLAT out of a 300 Weatherby.

IIRC the 168gr Xs are shaped more like target bullets.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

If you believe that formula, then a 150 gr X is equal to a 180 gr Partition. That is probably pretty close to reality, but I find it hard to rely upon math when you are dealing with flesh and bone and across the range of calibers from .224 to .458. I will probably try the 150s and 165s both, just to see what shoots best.

 

[Tom]

I know a guy that really like the Barnes triple, it cuts down fouling up the barrel too.

 

[1_pointer]

I wouldn't take it too literally, but believe it is a good rule of thumb. It backs up much of the 'real world' stories I heard of the X performance. Heck, I've seen a video of a guy dropping a 2yr old steer with 100gr XLCs out of a 25-284 at 125yds. Didn't exit, but broke both shoulders.