Irrelevant
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Here's a vid of three different predators (coyote, bobcat, and cougar) using wildlife crossings, both overpass and underpasses.
You Can't Fix Stupid - $87,000,000 California Lion "Crossing"
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Nick87
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Wonder how that work out with state size taken into account.
Desk Pop
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Did you read the quote you put there?A bunch of bitchin' an moaning about city slickers caring about wildlife... wait, which part am I supposed to be upset with?
Do you think the pronghorn are the only critter that crosses the wildlife overpass at Daniel Junction? I mean weren't they already crossing there before? F-'em, waste of money for a couple measly sage rats.
So what if they call it a cougar crossing, do you think that's the only critter that benefits? F those deer too!
Hoping to fend off the extinction of mountain lions and other species that require room to roam, transportation officials and conservationists will build a mostly privately funded wildlife crossing over a major Southern California highway. It will give big cats, coyotes, deer, lizards, snakes and other creatures a safe route to open space and better access to food and potential mates.
California freeway crossing to give wildlife room to roam
LOS ANGELES (AP) — Like many urban singles, the mountain lion P-22 lives a solitary life in a too-small habitat.www.latimes.com
I genuinely think this faux outrage at something had it been done in any other state would have been applauded is more akin to shooting a friggin' hole in the boat? Want more people to turn anti-hunting? By all means sheds the last remnants of conservation and see where that takes us.
By comparison WA is dropping $1 bil on 3 wildlife crossings for I-90 in association with a typical multi-year transportation improvement project.
Project funding – I-90 Wildlife Bridges Coalition
i90wildlifebridges.org
"Hoping to fend off extinction of mountain lions..."
Here is another from the people behind this: "The only one [crossing] designed to save a species from extinction." They say lions will be "extinct in 50 years."
The same people saying their study says cats won't cross the road are saying that lions are going to go extinct and the overpass "will allow clans of cougars" to cross. "Clans" of cougars. Next they will be talking about reuniting lion mommies and daddies at the annual wildlife meeting at Pride Rock.
Bud, if you can't see through this and you truly believe this overpass will save mountain lions from extinction, well, ignorance is bliss. Maybe you should donate.
If they truly believe they need more mixed blood, then they could hire houndsmen to move a new male in on each side every year. They could likely get this done for free. Clearly hounds were used if they collared cats already.
It was kind of a lighthearted thread when I opened it. Like, obviously building a crossing for the express purpose of a single overpopulated species on the grounds that it will literally save them from extinction for $87,000,000 is kind of silly. It wasn't: crossings are bad, or conservation is bad, or spending money on conservation is bad. It is that perhaps they should consider if there is (a) a better use of the conservation money, and/or (b) is there a way to accomplish the goal in a cheaper and more efficient way.
If iT saYz the Word exTincTiOn aNd cOnSErvATIon iT MuSt bE a GooD UsE of MoNEy.
It is ok to support conservation and still know money is a limited resource and be discerning or critical of how it is spent.
Desk Pop
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I wouldn't say I am anti-cougar. That's kind of funny.Overpopulation, defined as when an organism's population exceeding the carrying capacity of its environment would indicate that cougars are not overpopulated in California. Overpopulation, defined as the cougars are killing deer and elk making it too hard for me, with my limited hunting skills to kill deer and elk each year, well, that's a different story.
At first I thought folks on hear were just anti-environmental projects but now it is clear that it is just anti-California/anti-cougar sentiments driving the discussion. We, here in Southern Oregon invented the anti-California movement back in the early 60's, maybe earlier but I was to young to notice. I too miss the days when the deer and elk populations were nearing overpopulation status making it so that even a bumbling fool like me could go out and stumble into something to shoot. Which was indeed partially do to the indiscriminate killing of natural predators. So I do understand. But Dammit, when I see millions of dollars being spent on conservation projects anywhere in the world, I just got to say "About damn time."
If I don't care about lions as much or more than anyone on this forum, I am certainly one of the more vocal ones about sustaining their populations and a balance in game management rather than eradicating them for the sake of ungulate populations.
I've spent alot of time in meetings, writing, sending press releases and interviewing with media specifically regarding lion management in my own state and others in hopes of preserving them and not over-harvesting them.
I just am critical of this specific project and that's why I started the thread.
I wasn't aiming my comment at you but more at the general tone of much of this thread. I will say that when I see people complaining about money going to one conservation project rather than a more "worthy project" it kinda comes across like " How could that dirty bastard give $10,000 to St. Jude's when he could have just as easily given it to the Shriner's Hospital"
Desk Pop
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Fair comment
KB_
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I wanna know who the dang accountant is for these people. How can you justify almost 100mil for a freakin bridge for cats..... Im curious to know what the profit margin is for that kind of project lol
I mean seriously materials cant possibly be half of that right? Are they using golden rugs for the cats to wipe their feet before they step on the bridge of marble?
Maybe... just maybe make the contractor compete a little bit eh?
I mean seriously materials cant possibly be half of that right? Are they using golden rugs for the cats to wipe their feet before they step on the bridge of marble?
Maybe... just maybe make the contractor compete a little bit eh?
Irrelevant
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I don't give a #(&% if the media mixed up extinction and extirpation. I mean is that where your hanging your hat? The idea that anyone who even halfass thinks of themselves as a "conservationist" would be against this, when it is receiving tens of millions in PRIVATELY FUNDs by west coast yuppies (Leo included) that we in the hunting community have lambasted for not paying their fair share for wildlife conservation in this country, is so friggin' ridiculous I don't even know where to start.
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LuketheDog
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no, No, NO, stop making sense!
Let him have his soap box...Why only use one post when 25 will do?
Irrelevant
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If you really want to get into the $$$ weeds. The WY Trapper's Point Crossings cost ~$10 in 2012, that year the Wyoming Transportation budget was approx 864 mil (as best a 3 minute search could find), so that single project represented about 1.2% of the entire transpo budget (assuming WY paid for it all though I'm sure the FHA pitched in). This terribly expensive, unnecessary, and ludicrous cougar crossing at $87 mil represents 0.27% of the CalTranspo budget of $31.7 bil (again assuming that Cal pays for it all, which they're not).
EYJONAS!
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elkantlers
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Better add train crossings to the list.View attachment 218110View attachment 218110
elkantlers
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Better add train crossings to the list.
Nick87
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That cat had 9 lives she just spent em all clark.
D
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Easy there! He just has a different opinion. Thats all.
HUNTTALK MAN
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THE ONLY GOOD LOIN IS A DEAD LOIN.
SHOOT!!!! SHOVEL!!!! and SHUT UP!!!
SHOOT!!!! SHOVEL!!!! and SHUT UP!!!
Welcome to hunt talk.
Hunting Wife
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Again, citations? Because the collaring data and genetic data say that crossing isn’t happening in this population at a level that will allow it to persist. Models predict extirpation within a few decades.
A lot of folks don’t think local extirpation is a big deal, but when people are talking about pursuing a listing for the sub-population, I guarantee you $87 million would have looked like a huge bargain. Not debating whether it’s warranted or not, but it looks like some groups are already strategizing for the future here.
We also have lots of data indicating relocation of cats in particular leads to increased mortality due to intraspecies conflicts as the interlopers get dumped into occupied territories. Plus handling-related mortality. This is exactly why biologists tell the anti-hunting crowd that simply relocating animals isn’t a viable solution when they want us to just move everything rather than allow hunting. If translocations result in increased mortality, wouldn’t we very likely be exacerbating the very problem we are trying to solve? And it’s a band-aid…it would likely need to happen in perpetuity given increased human expansion.
Mountain lions have been documented to use a wide variety of wildlife crossing structures. The difference between herd animals and cats has absolutely nothing to do with sheer numbers crossing, it has to do with life history and gene flow and population dynamics. Predators are far more sparse on the landscape than herbivores, they exist at much lower population densities and have very different social structures. As such, it takes far fewer individual mountain lions to use a crossing to have a large benefit to the population as a whole. When you are talking about genetics of a population this size, individuals matter. I would hazard a guess it would benefit a suite of other species living in this highly fragmented/isolated landscape besides cats as well.
I don’t have a dog in this fight, I don’t care about changing anyone’s mind and I won’t post further. But I do this to make a point…people really like to sit on the sidelines and second-guess what the folks working on these issues are doing. It’s very easy to do that when you have the luxury of superficial knowledge and only having to consider one piece of a complex issue. Not singling anyone out here..just a general observation that can be made about most wildlife management topics. But what I have learned to be true so far…if I think the solution is simple, I don’t really understand the problem.
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