Wyoming Sheep Point Thought

[JM77]

No, you are right it doesn’t, but being wealthy shouldn’t mean you have a better chance at drawing a tag either, but that is the direction WGFD seems to be going.

Singling out Wyoming on these issues is pretty ridiculous on your part.

 

[BuzzH]

No, you are right it doesn’t, but being wealthy shouldn’t mean you have a better chance at drawing a tag either, but that is the direction WGFD seems to be going.

You don't have to draw if you have money.

 

[rogerthat]

The only “fair” way to do this is a merit based system where you apply and your application is evaluated by AI on a merit based system. For example some of the questions could be:

Have you ever hunted wild sheep?
How many states do you apply for wild sheep permits in and for how long?
What are some of your contributions to conservation?
Who do you plan to vote for in the 2024 presidential election?

We could also add in a question on age.
Are you an old crusty sheepless bastard?

This seems to be the only fair way forward for allocating sheep permits.

 

[cgasner1]

No, you are right it doesn’t, but being wealthy shouldn’t mean you have a better chance at drawing a tag either, but that is the direction WGFD seems to be going.

Tough time to be old and broke i guess. I’d probably get a better return on Wyoming sheep points than social security if I was a betting man

 

[JM77]

The only “fair” way to do this is a merit based system where you apply and your application is evaluated by AI on a merit based system. For example some of the questions could be:

Have you ever hunted wild sheep?
How many states do you apply for wild sheep permits in and for how long?
What are some of your contributions to conservation?
Who do you plan to vote for in the 2024 presidential election?

We could also add in a question on age.
Are you an old crusty sheepless bastard?

This seems to be the only fair way forward for allocating sheep permits.

You forgot "Do you belong to the Wild Sheep Foundation?"

Got to keep the money flowing so there's enough for Gray Thorton's $630k salary.

 

[SCliving Outdoors]

You don't have to draw if you have money.

This is what I was about to say.

 

[Bluffgruff]

Invest in his education. Make great money and you don't have to even apply in a state draw to hunt the best animals in the West every year.

A surgeon living in Chicago is going to hunt the best every year, no applying required.

Just the way it is.

I have to disagree. I'm not saying doctors aren't comfortable financially, but most are far from "rich." I don't see them out there competing for auction tags very often anymore. The guys doing that are usually higher ups in some kind of business like construction, OG, service industries, and healthcare, etc. The CEO of the healthcare company I used to work at had 10x my salary in the worst year I was there, and 30x in the best year I'm aware of. That dude has an MBA, not an MD.

To address the original post, the answer is no, we shouldn't be giving the older people in the system advantages beyond what they have already. That doesn't help the resource. The 25 year old guy that has 30+ years left to chase sheep has way more advocacy potential in him than the guy who has few or no years left to chase sheep. All of this means sheep tags should never be in a pure preference system, and groups in every state should be looking at unlimited sheep hunts as a way to involve more sheep hunters.

 

[Bwillig]

Singling out Wyoming on these issues is pretty ridiculous on your part.

No, you are correct, all of the western states are guilty of price gouging in my opinion. New Mexico is at least fair to everyone as far as the draw goes, no point system, luck of the draw.

 

[Bwillig]

Tough time to be old and broke i guess. I’d probably get a better return on Wyoming sheep points than social security if I was a betting man

If they made points transferable, I’d bet I could make a ton on mine!

 

[wyoelkfan15]

You forgot "Do you belong to the Wild Sheep Foundation?"

Got to keep the money flowing so there's enough for Gray Thorton's $630k salary.

That's enough to make me stop donating this year. Their tax filing for last year shows it as half of that, but still insane for a nonprofit.

 

[rjthehunter]

That's enough to make me stop donating this year. Their tax filing for last year shows it as half of that, but still insane for a nonprofit.

It's wild what CEO's make of non profits.

https://www.charitywatch.org/nonprofit-compensation-packages-of-1-million-or-more

 

[BuzzH]

I have to disagree. I'm not saying doctors aren't comfortable financially, but most are far from "rich." I don't see them out there competing for auction tags very often anymore. The guys doing that are usually higher ups in some kind of business like construction, OG, service industries, and healthcare, etc. The CEO of the healthcare company I used to work at had 10x my salary in the worst year I was there, and 30x in the best year I'm aware of. That dude has an MBA, not an MD.

To address the original post, the answer is no, we shouldn't be giving the older people in the system advantages beyond what they have already. That doesn't help the resource. The 25 year old guy that has 30+ years left to chase sheep has way more advocacy potential in him than the guy who has few or no years left to chase sheep. All of this means sheep tags should never be in a pure preference system, and groups in every state should be looking at unlimited sheep hunts as a way to involve more sheep hunters.

BS...landowner tags in New Mexico for elk are cheap, same with Utah, Nevada, Colorado, etc. Commission tags for DEA aren't outrageous for somebody making a six figure salary a year.

I made enough yesterday in the market to buy some pretty great elk, deer, and pronghorn tags or even put a big chunk down for a desert sheep in Mexico.

Doctors, lawyers, or even people smart with their money can hunt wayyyyyyy more and better tags than Joe Schmuck applying in state draws...fact.

I'll likely be doing plenty of that myself as I approach hunting decade 5.

 

[Nameless Range]

Would it be considered age discrimination if, along with a person’s preference points, their age was an added factor to whether a person draws a tag or not? Example: 10 hunters have 24 points and are applying for 1 tag, oldest person is 70 and the youngest is 45. Younger guys may have to wait 9-10 years max to draw, but the 70 year old guy might actually get a chance to hunt before he or she is no longer able? Thoughts? And yes, I do fit into this scenario, although I am closer to 60 than 70!

Just for the sake of argument, if likely time left on earth were the driver, one could imagine all sort of comorbidities the we could consider outside of age - diabetes, cancer, incurable diseases, etc. Dudes'd be stuffing chicken fried steak down their gullets 24-7 just to achieve that BMI that boosts their likelihood of drawing.

The truth is we should just abandon all the point schemes, the handouts, the preferences, the landowner tags, the guarantees - well-meaning ideas that morph and slip into weird systems the participants of which often seem to come down with a sort of Stockholm Syndrome toward and the beneficaries of which see as a windfall - and just hold equal opportunity in the drawing process as sacrosanct, and move on to the real issues.

I hope you draw before you're dead. I hope everyone does.

 

[MTGomer]

Would it be age discrimination if we just said that people that were adults in the 1970s, where you could have gotten a grand slam on a blue-collar wage, if it were a priority to you, weren’t allowed to apply for sheep anymore?

 

[LIK2HNT]

Would it be age discrimination if we just said that people that were adults in the 1970s, where you could have gotten a grand slam on a blue-collar wage, if it were a priority to you, weren’t allowed to apply for sheep anymore?

Most that fit that are probably in the ground already or to old to hunt sheep.

 

[BigHornRam]

Would it be age discrimination if we just said that people that were adults in the 1970s, where you could have gotten a grand slam on a blue-collar wage, if it were a priority to you, weren’t allowed to apply for sheep anymore?

DD has 2, and would probably tell you to go piss up a rope.

 

[LopeHunter]

Being old doesn’t entitle you to shit over another person.

Agreed. Being old does not get me a better odds at the casino, easier chance with the drunk barmaid at closing time, or a lower cost of fuel at the gas station. What being older does get me is I am wiser with what I do with my time and money. I also had more chances over the years to pull a Montana sheep tag and a Colorado moose tag than someone just becoming eligible to apply in those states. I have applied for close to four decades. I could have drawn in any of those years. A new applicant could not have.

Any draw where the pool of applicants exceeds the number of tags in the bucket by 10x is going to have a failed preference point system. The 10x implies will take you 10 to draw though things change such as winter die-offs reduce tags over the upcoming 10 years, resident/non-resident splits change, tags get set aside for outfitters or landowners, tags get carved out for a trade show convention, etc. Rule one of dating is be attractive. Rule one of a preference point system is apply in the first year of the scheme. The initial pool will have better odds forever until they draw out and then will be the T-1 pool then T-2. I think Wyoming non-resident sheep pool is at T-3 after three decades and they get 75% or so of the non-resident blue-ribbon sheep tags in a given year.

A bonus point system will also be broken at 10x but the breakage will be less obvious since even a new applicant will have a chance.

The best system, in my gray-haired opinion, is a 100% random draw with no set-aside tags for youth, veterans, disabled, landowners, outfitters, friends of politicians, etc. Non-residents get a guaranteed 10% of tags. if you draw then you have a waiting period to apply whether you harvest or not. I would set the waiting time to be the number of years which results when divide the number of applicants by the number of tags for the unit you drew your tag in. Say 300 applied and your drew 1 of 3 tags then 300/3 is 100 years to wait. Be patient, grasshopper. The goal is to be fair to the entire pool of applicants which you used to be part of until you drew.

I like to hunt. When I was younger I not only chased the Big 3/OIL tags but also elk, deer and pronghorn. For E/D/P, I was not holding out for a blue ribbon unit so was looking for a nice adventure which to me meant plenty of accessible land, high harvest rates and lots of shot opportunities which are possible if you are fine shooting a 260" bull, 140" buck or a 10" pronghorn. I shot a lot of critters. Packed a lot of meat a lot of miles.

Alas, I now nearing the November of my lifespan. I only apply for hunts where I can solo hunt with mild terrain or is a tag for which I am willing to hire a guide since my wife is convinced that I will die on the mountain during one of my adventures. I will die at some point so not a bad way to go while fighting a grizzly bear with a Bowie knife or just having my body say Uncle.

 

[Bluffgruff]

BS...landowner tags in New Mexico for elk are cheap, same with Utah, Nevada, Colorado, etc. Commission tags for DEA aren't outrageous for somebody making a six figure salary a year.

I made enough yesterday in the market to buy some pretty great elk, deer, and pronghorn tags or even put a big chunk down for a desert sheep in Mexico.

Doctors, lawyers, or even people smart with their money can hunt wayyyyyyy more and better tags than Joe Schmuck applying in state draws...fact.

I'll likely be doing plenty of that myself as I approach hunting decade 5.

I'm talking sheep auction tags, not DEA (or moose or mtn goat).

 

[cgasner1]

Agreed. Being old does not get me a better odds at the casino, easier chance with the drunk barmaid at closing time, or a lower cost of fuel at the gas station. What being older does get me is I am wiser with what I do with my time and money. I also had more chances over the years to pull a Montana sheep tag and a Colorado moose tag than someone just becoming eligible to apply in those states. I have applied for close to four decades. I could have drawn in any of those years. A new applicant could not have.

Any draw where the pool of applicants exceeds the number of tags in the bucket by 10x is going to have a failed preference point system. The 10x implies will take you 10 to draw though things change such as winter die-offs reduce tags over the upcoming 10 years, resident/non-resident splits change, tags get set aside for outfitters or landowners, tags get carved out for a trade show convention, etc. Rule one of dating is be attractive. Rule one of a preference point system is apply in the first year of the scheme. The initial pool will have better odds forever until they draw out and then will be the T-1 pool then T-2. I think Wyoming non-resident sheep pool is at T-3 after three decades and they get 75% or so of the non-resident blue-ribbon sheep tags in a given year.

A bonus point system will also be broken at 10x but the breakage will be less obvious since even a new applicant will have a chance.

The best system, in my gray-haired opinion, is a 100% random draw with no set-aside tags for youth, veterans, disabled, landowners, outfitters, friends of politicians, etc. Non-residents get a guaranteed 10% of tags. if you draw then you have a waiting period to apply whether you harvest or not. I would set the waiting time to be the number of years which results when divide the number of applicants by the number of tags for the unit you drew your tag in. Say 300 applied and your drew 1 of 3 tags then 300/3 is 100 years to wait. Be patient, grasshopper. The goal is to be fair to the entire pool of applicants which you used to be part of until you drew.

I like to hunt. When I was younger I not only chased the Big 3/OIL tags but also elk, deer and pronghorn. For E/D/P, I was not holding out for a blue ribbon unit so was looking for a nice adventure which to me meant plenty of accessible land, high harvest rates and lots of shot opportunities which are possible if you are fine shooting a 260" bull, 140" buck or a 10" pronghorn. I shot a lot of critters. Packed a lot of meat a lot of miles.

Alas, I now nearing the November of my lifespan. I only apply for hunts where I can solo hunt with mild terrain or is a tag for which I am willing to hire a guide since my wife is convinced that I will die on the mountain during one of my adventures. I will die at some point so not a bad way to go while fighting a grizzly bear with a Bowie knife or just having my body say Uncle.

This year I will apply in 8 states. You know what I won’t apply for Wyoming big 3 it’s a broke system. True preference point systems are ridiculous. Some day they may change it to a bonus where I would at least have a chance at getting hit by lightning. If that ever happens I’ll wish I had bought the points. In the mean time I’ll keep spending money when I have a actual chance other than outliving people

 

[BigHornRam]

I'm talking sheep auction tags, not DEA (or moose or mtn goat).

Buzz knew that. He's just being salty.