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[Elky Welky]

THIS. All of the avante garde Hemingway hate for bravado and machismo is only revealing the reader whiffed on the deeper message. I still feel a little twinge in my chest every time I read For Whom the Bell Tolls.

One of the saddest things about Hemingway scholarship and criticism is that people can't seem to divorce his life from his work (when I took a course in Hemingway in grad school my professor would start every class with an update on what was going on in his life when he wrote the story. Fascinating biography, of course, but not really relevant). One informs the other, sure, but the art stands alone. His terse, journalistic prose was developed to tell you just enough but make you infer the rest (aka the iceberg theory). Often imitated, but never surpassed.

I read "The Short, Happy Life of Francis McComber," "Big Two-Hearted River," and "The Old Man and the Sea" annually.

 

[BrentD]

One of the saddest things about Hemingway scholarship and criticism is that people can't seem to divorce his life from his work (when I took a course in Hemingway in grad school my professor would start every class with an update on what was going on in his life when he wrote the story. Fascinating biography, of course, but not really relevant). One informs the other, sure, but the art stands alone. His terse, journalistic prose was developed to tell you just enough but make you infer the rest (aka the iceberg theory). Often imitated, but never surpassed.

I read "The Short, Happy Life of Francis McComber," "Big Two-Hearted River," and "The Old Man and the Sea" annually.

I can't imagine knowing nothing about Hemingway and then diving into his work. His life and his work are inextricably entwined, in my opinion. I think that is true of most if not all great authors.

 

[Sheltowee]

One of the saddest things about Hemingway scholarship and criticism is that people can't seem to divorce his life from his work (when I took a course in Hemingway in grad school my professor would start every class with an update on what was going on in his life when he wrote the story. Fascinating biography, of course, but not really relevant). One informs the other, sure, but the art stands alone. His terse, journalistic prose was developed to tell you just enough but make you infer the rest (aka the iceberg theory). Often imitated, but never surpassed.

I read "The Short, Happy Life of Francis McComber," "Big Two-Hearted River," and "The Old Man and the Sea" annually.

One of my favorite classes in undergrad was a Hemingway independent study. Each week, I'd read one of his novels, then have coffee with my favorite English professor to chat about it.

 

[Salmonchaser]

I read Old Man and the sea when I was 10 or 11. My take then was different than it was later in life.
I still don't like sharks.....

 

[Irrelevant]

THIS. All of the avante garde Hemingway hate for bravado and machismo is only revealing the reader whiffed on the deeper message. I still feel a little twinge in my chest every time I read For Whom the Bell Tolls.

...hate? From who?

 

[Sheltowee]

...hate? From who?

Seems like the popular position among literary types is that Hemingway is a posturing, uber-macho hack. His writing is much, much deeper than all of that.

 

[Irrelevant]

Seems like the popular position among literary types is that Hemingway is a posturing, uber-macho hack. His writing is much, much deeper than all of that.

Ah, gotcha.

Can't both be true at least at different levels?

I read for whom the bell tolls again last year. It still doesn't sit with me like his short stories do. I'm with @Elky Welky on which stories I read over and over and over again. I once read Old Man in the Sea three times one day back to back to back. It was just as good the last time as the first.

 

[Sheltowee]

Ah, gotcha.

Can't both be true at least at different levels?

I read for whom the bell tolls again last year. It still doesn't sit with me like his short stories do. I'm with @Elky Welky on which stories I read over and over and over again. I once read Old Man in the Sea three times one day back to back to back. It was just as good the last time as the first.

Sure, to an extent. Certainly in some of his later works like Across the River and Into the Trees. I might suggest reading FWTBT again. I've read it probably a dozen times, and each time I discover something new. Robert Jordan's battle of trying to outwardly appear calm and composed while inwardly struggling with fear, shame and childhood trauma is captivating.

I guess my point is that the machismo and posturing in most of his protagonists-- and by extension in Hemingway himself-- was a coping mechanism to the inner turmoil they experience.

 

[Elky Welky]

Sure, to an extent. Certainly in some of his later works like Across the River and Into the Trees. I might suggest reading FWTBT again. I've read it probably a dozen times, and each time I discover something new. Robert Jordan's battle of trying to outwardly appear calm and composed while inwardly struggling with fear, shame and childhood trauma is captivating.

I guess my point is that the machismo and posturing in most of his protagonists-- and by extension in Hemingway himself-- was a coping mechanism to the inner turmoil they experience.

"Courage is grace under pressure" is the term he coined and one of the most prominent themes of the Hemingway code hero.

Outside of a few universities (University of Idaho), Hemingway scholarship has really fallen out of vogue amongst literary critics, for a few reasons. The one I experienced when I was studying him was that there simply isn't much left to say that hasn't already been said. When an author has been gone for some time, it's hard to keep coming up with new ways to analyze their work. But more recently, as people continue to blend his life with his work, he's come to embody (what typically hyper-liberal english departments call) "Toxic Masculinity."

Sherman Alexie is a good contemporary example of what can happen to an excellent writer in the metoo era (for better or worse). For a period of time, he was considered one of the rising stars of the literary world, but since he was found to be doing terrible things, his work has since disappeared from literature anthologies and scholarship.

@BrentD Hemingway's biography is fascinating, no doubt. 2 plane crashes, 3 car crashes, 4 wives, Paris in the 20s, Cuba, Idaho, Africa, etc. My earlier comment reflects what literary critics call "New Criticism" even though the term was coined in the 1960s and is anything but new. I tend to subscribe to this school of thought. New Criticism seeks to analyze literature as any other form of art, for its merits and notwithstanding authorial intent and background. Context is interesting, but as art Hemingway's works deserve be judged on the merits, not the man.

 

[BrentD]

@Elky Welky , we might have to agree to disagree. Imagine that I had written the exact same words as Hemmingway. I've never crashed anything, one wife (still), Paris never, ditto Cuba, only a job interview in Idaho. One trip to Africa, however. But nothing charged me (except the PH). Context matters a lot. But that does not give permission for composing schlock (unless you are Fitzgerald). That he had been there, done that, gives credibility to the words that someone like myself cannot. And that matters.

For Whom the Bell Tolls, by Brent J. Danielson. I don't think so.

As an aside, possibly interesting only to me, I once slept on the floor of a friend of friend's, father's home library in Germany (I'll pause while you parse that). It was filled with maybe tens of thousands of books. Every single one of them about Shakespeare. Clearly, the man's history is as important as the words that he wrote. In Hemmingway's case, I would say his history is proportionately an order of magnitude more important that Shake's.

 

[Elky Welky]

@Elky Welky , we might have to agree to disagree. Imagine that I had written the exact same words as Hemmingway. I've never crashed anything, one wife (still), Paris never, ditto Cuba, only a job interview in Idaho. One trip to Africa, however. But nothing charged me (except the PH). Context matters a lot. But that does not give permission for composing schlock (unless you are Fitzgerald). That he had been there, done that, gives credibility to the words that someone like myself cannot. And that matters.

For Whom the Bell Tolls, by Brent J. Danielson. I don't think so.

As an aside, possibly interesting only to me, I once slept on the floor of a friend of friend's, father's home library in Germany (I'll pause while you parse that). It was filled with maybe tens of thousands of books. Every single one of them about Shakespeare. Clearly, the man's history is as important as the words that he wrote. In Hemmingway's case, I would say his history is proportionately an order of magnitude more important that Shake's.

No worries @BrentD. As someone who specifically studied Hemingway in grad school, I just wanted to let you know where I was coming from. We are closer than you think. One area of study involves putting work in context, another area involves judging the work on its merits. I, personally, prefer to start any analysis by studying art as art, music as music, and literature as literature. Context and Cultural Studies has been the death knell for each of these various fields.

Obviously I too find Hemingway's life to be as fascinating as his work. But I don't conflate the two, and I don't need his life to lend any credibility to it. Same with Cormac McCarthy. He didn't need to experience an apocalypse to write The Road or witness the violence of the American West to pen Blood Meridian; the works stand alone.

One of the beauties of studying literature is the many lenses through which we can view various works. New Criticism, Psychoanalysis, Ecocriticism, Deconstruction, Feminism, etc. Each can breathe life into the work. But it is not necessary for the appreciation of the art.

One doesn't need to know anything about Michelangelo to be awestruck by the Sistine Chapel.

 

[Nameless Range]

I think it will be interesting to watch conversations around the artist and his art - the relationship and importance of an author's life and his literary works - as time progresses. Particularly in a seemingly possible future where the finest book you've ever read, song you've ever heard, picture you ever seen - all will have been "created" by something other than people.

 

[huntnpack]

I was always slightly underwhelmed by Hemingway in terms of character development
(especially females) and complexity of plot etc. But always chalked up to presentism and tried to appreciate it for what it was. The settings were always compelling.

 

[Elky Welky]

I think it will be interesting to watch conversations around the artist and his art - the relationship and importance of an author's life and his literary works - as time progresses. Particularly in a seemingly possible future where the finest book you've ever read, song you've ever heard, picture you ever seen - all will have been "created" by something other than people.

Dark times. I'm glad I got out of that field when I did. My younger sister went on to be an Writing Prof., and AI has completely changed the game. It will in my current field too, but I think for the better. Scary to think that work defined by its humanity could well not have any humans involved.

 

[Irrelevant]

I guess my point is that the machismo and posturing in most of his protagonists-- and by extension in Hemingway himself-- was a coping mechanism to the inner turmoil they experience.

Sure, but is that not true of the real world and does that not still represent the actual conception and manifestation of the "toxic" part of toxic masculinity?

 

[daltrix99]

The Son, by Philipp Meyer! Holy Hera what a book! From the very first page I realized I was in for a hell of a read, and I immediately felt the inspiration Meyer takes from Cormac McCarthy, one of my favorite authors. This book is as if McCarthy, Larry McMurtry, and S.C. Gwynn's Empire of the Summer Moon formed a holy trinity of Frontier / Comanche literature and had a a magical baby - this book.

This book is brutal, devastating, beautiful, inspirational, funny, tragic, and utterly compelling. It follows three different protagonists of different generations of the same Texas ranching family, spanning from the mid 19th century to modern day. I don't want to say more, just dive in!

If you are sensitive to any dark or difficult themes, this book is a HARD R as far as content, so buyer beware.

If you like the authors I noted above, you'll love this. Blew my doors off.

 

[Salmonchaser]

I think to write about being charged by dangerous beasts, or being shot at, having done so gives something to Hemingways work that others can't duplicate.
What really impresses me about this whole conversation is the intelligent discussion of divergent views. Imagine if our leaders were capable of such work.
Wouldn't hurt if a few more of them behaved less like Francis Mcomber.

 

[Perlodid]

Enjoying all of the Hemingway discussion here. Over the fall I read Green Hills of Africa and some of his short stories. The more Hemingway I read, the more I appreciate his work as a whole. I keep rereading his stuff at different points in my life. I still remember I read The Sun Also Rises in like 9th grade and had such a hard time following it - I just liked hearing about him fishing in Spain. Came back to it in my undergrad and it was an entirely different experience. I try to read at least one new (to me) Hemingway book a year, and more often than not, they end up being the highlight of my reading that year. Love him or hate him, it's hard to imagine American literature without him.

I also just finished Big Woods by William Faulkner. Didn't know what to expect out of it, but I really enjoyed it. I would definitely recommend it to anyone here who is interested in the loss of wilderness/the impacts of civilization on the wild places around us, or anyone who just wants to read some quality hunting stories from an earlier time.

 

[Nicoli7153]

Enjoying all of the Hemingway discussion here. Over the fall I read Green Hills of Africa and some of his short stories. The more Hemingway I read, the more I appreciate his work as a whole. I keep rereading his stuff at different points in my life. I still remember I read The Sun Also Rises in like 9th grade and had such a hard time following it - I just liked hearing about him fishing in Spain. Came back to it in my undergrad and it was an entirely different experience. I try to read at least one new (to me) Hemingway book a year, and more often than not, they end up being the highlight of my reading that year. Love him or hate him, it's hard to imagine American literature without him.

I also just finished Big Woods by William Faulkner. Didn't know what to expect out of it, but I really enjoyed it. I would definitely recommend it to anyone here who is interested in the loss of wilderness/the impacts of civilization on the wild places around us, or anyone who just wants to read some quality hunting stories from an earlier time.

I agree, I have re-read many authors at different points in my life and they have taken on new meaning.

This thread has put me on to a lot of great new reading material.

Living in Northern Michigan I have walked and fished over some of the same ground and water that Harrison and Hemmingway have. Pretty cool!

BTW the Two Hearted is not the water Hemmingway wrote of in the Nick Adams stories. Like any good fisherman he was a liar when it came to giving up his spots!

 

[Perlodid]

I agree, I have re-read many authors at different points in my life and they have taken on new meaning.

This thread has put me on to a lot of great new reading material.

Living in Northern Michigan I have walked and fished over some of the same ground and water that Harrison and Hemmingway have. Pretty cool!

BTW the Two Hearted is not the water Hemmingway wrote of in the Nick Adams stories. Like any good fisherman he was a liar when it came to giving up his spots!

Ha yup, the "Big Two Hearted" is not really all that big when you're digging through the alders trying to wrestle a brookie out of that jungle. Spent a lot of time up there too. Miss that area a lot. The actual Two Hearted is a pretty great place in its own right, even if it isn't what he wrote about.