WARNING: Student Load Forgiveness is Very Unlikely to Pay for Your Next Elk Tag
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Addicting
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20 pages in and I can’t help but think of how many of these kids talked about would of been eligible to join the military.
BrentD
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That is what everyone hopes for and all those on campus will strive for. Believe me, faculty will want your daughter to succeed as much as you do. That said, part of the experience is learning to cope and triumph over difficulties and know how to struggle and come out on top. We don't make school a struggle intentionally, but if it is worthwhile, it probably won't be easy. Encourage her to see what she can do outside of the classroom as well as in it. And expect her to explore some academic areas that may be tangential to what you think her interests are at the moment. She will be undergoing a lot of change and learning a lot about herself, as well as about some arcane Scandinavian poetry
(had to throw that in there to see if @VikingsGuy is awake).
DouglasR
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isn’t this called life?
It’s weird how this is marketed as part of the college experience.
So cliche.
DouglasR
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It’s interesting how on one hand y’all describe it as the easiest way to the upper middle class then call it a challenge
VikingsGuy
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You raise a whole other area of consideration. I haven't seen good numbers for the percentage of people who will flourish with a college education vs those who are better off with an alternate post-high school path. I also don't know that I have seen good numbers on the percentage of people the US needs to have skills/capabilities uniquely gained via college compared to other choices/needs.
A complete guess is that in 2023 we are sending too many to 4 yr colleges.
Also, are those we are sending the right ones? I would guess too many from some demographics and too few from others, as it appears at a broad scale to be more about cultural expectations than actual individual preference/benefits.
We need plumbers, electricians, structural framers, welders, etc as much as we need middle managers and dentists. I am not convinced our high schools, college admissions processes, or market signals are doing a good job helping kids sort into the right tracks.
Jamen
Well-known member
Somewhat of a funny story about my college career. 4.5 years at NDSU ended up transferring 1 week before my final semester because i was .03 off the GPA mark, they wanted for my program. Thats a different story, but anyway. I had a lot of up and down semesters in college. I remember going in to talk to my advisor i was going to be a senior at the time credit wise junior by years at the school. I came into college with almost a year of college credits from high school. I was a year behind in the business program and grades were so so. She suggested i switch majors and get a communications degree. I basically could graduate that day with the credits i had. I looked her dead in the eye and said, " What the hell kind of job will i find with that?" Her reply was something to the tune of, well it will just show employers you stuck it out and got a degree. I then replied back something like i didn't come all this way and spend a small fortune to end up with a worthless piece of paper.
After that I remember i walked home that day 1.5 miles i didn't take the bus. I switched consolers on the spot because i didn't like the direction she was pushing me. But i had a bigger thought that most of the classes i took were worthless and if the people we are supposed to trust to guide us for our futures didn't really care to what i wanted for my future why am i even here at college? That was the day i started to have a chip on my shoulder, that and the day i was told I'm not graduating in the spring 5 days before my final semester.
After that I remember i walked home that day 1.5 miles i didn't take the bus. I switched consolers on the spot because i didn't like the direction she was pushing me. But i had a bigger thought that most of the classes i took were worthless and if the people we are supposed to trust to guide us for our futures didn't really care to what i wanted for my future why am i even here at college? That was the day i started to have a chip on my shoulder, that and the day i was told I'm not graduating in the spring 5 days before my final semester.
VikingsGuy
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Those concepts are not mutually exclusive. Something can be difficult but still give one better odds of the outcome. For example, lifting weights can be difficult, but may be the best way to be able to benchpress 500lbs.It’s interesting how on one hand y’all describe it as the easiest way to the upper middle class then call it a challenge
sclancy27
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Putting 250K into a trust made up of S&P index funds is going to do more for an 18 yr old than paying the same amount for college. If you put that money into a trust, then had them take out loans for a degree they would be WAYYYY further ahead, both financially and life skills. Depending on when the trust was able to be accessed, they could have multiple millions in it. Sometimes I wonder if parents saying how much they will pay for kids school is more about the parents ego than it is about the future of their child, but I could be wrong. ****That is a general statement, not a statement pointed at anyone in particular****
D
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The interest on the loans flatten that idea lol
… and demonstrates a total lack of knowledge of how student loans work.
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Putting $250k into index funds, then taking out a 20-30 year $250k loan at 5-7% interest doesn't scream to me that it's a sound financial decision. I'd also doubt the kids motivation to succeed on their own if they already know that their retirement is bought and paid for by mom and dad. It's all relative and situational and I struggle myself with what to do.
As we speak my 6 month old is crawling around on her play mat and I am trying to decide on if we should be saving enough for a whole 4+ year college education or if we should have her struggle through paying back hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans like her parents are doing currently. I think the answer for us will fall somewhere in the middle, pay for half of any in-state schools tuition and she will get loans for the rest. Helps her more than our parents helped us, but also gives her some financial/ownership of her education....Disclaimer: opinion subject to change over the next 18 years....
Some high schools are doing a great job preparing kids for kids for college, vo-tech, or the workforce. Our high school has academies that focus on different areas and focus the 3 Rs to that academy (eg Health and Human Services Academy). They have many courses that explore different vocations, have career days where they meet people in the community and discuss careers, and have business leaders mentor coach every freshmen. There are many other programs as well.
@Jamen, my counselor was horrible as well. He had no clue about engineering. I switched counselors and got a great one who made a difference. I remember the confidence boost he gave me when I was meeting with him. I was not a straight A student and was worried about my job prospects. He looked me in the eye and said, "You are so damn employable, you will have no problem. Jobs are not solely about grades".
As for whether to pay for your child's college or not is a question that soon moves into the topic of generational wealth. That could (and should) be its own thread as there is a lot to unpack on that topic. For the record, we have 529s for all the kids. Although there is a good chunk of change in there, it will likely not be enough. Which is perfect for me. I want them to have some loans and skin in the game.
@Jamen, my counselor was horrible as well. He had no clue about engineering. I switched counselors and got a great one who made a difference. I remember the confidence boost he gave me when I was meeting with him. I was not a straight A student and was worried about my job prospects. He looked me in the eye and said, "You are so damn employable, you will have no problem. Jobs are not solely about grades".
As for whether to pay for your child's college or not is a question that soon moves into the topic of generational wealth. That could (and should) be its own thread as there is a lot to unpack on that topic. For the record, we have 529s for all the kids. Although there is a good chunk of change in there, it will likely not be enough. Which is perfect for me. I want them to have some loans and skin in the game.
Pucky Freak
Well-known member
My dad started college at Carleton, then finished at U of MN in geology. Worked in O&G until domestic production wound down in the mid-eighties, and then had a second career in finance and investing.
From a very early age, he encouraged a liberal arts education. His quip was “college is not where you go to get a job, it’s where you learn how to think.”
I took his advice and signed on for a $120k liberal arts program in 2002. I secured 50k in merit scholarships, got 10k from family, and the rest I aggressively self-funded through work. By 2007 I didn’t owe anyone a dime. It’s by far been the best investment I made in life. I took courses in probably 15 different subjects, including painting and Shakespearean Sonnets. The only major subjects I didn’t tackle were econ, philosophy, and sociology, and now looking back I wish that had taken those too.
On graduation day I wasn’t prepared for a career, but that hardly mattered. The world was my oyster and I had a fledgling understanding of how things worked. I eventually went back to obtain a practical degree that serves as the foundation of my career of the last 13 years.
To @DouglasR , the sticker price of higher education appears high (it is high), but it’s far from unobtainable, even for families of modest income. We invest $120/mo per kid from before they can talk, to age 18. That + where we’ll be able to cash flow the remaining tuition when they’re in school no one should have any student loans.
Like @Nick87 we also have a flexible approach where it’s not just 4-yr-degree at age 18 one-size-fits all. Maybe a kid wants to start a business, do an apprenticeship, military, whatever. We’ll try to help get them off to a promising career start. $$$ liberal arts is definitely not for everyone. Our society should get along just fine with 5% of the population on “thinking” courses of study. Let the families who can fork out that kind of dough pay for them on their own.
On the matter of loan forgiveness… there’s 100 ways to skin a cat and connect a young person to a productive career. One of the most popular is massive sums of debt secured by taxpayers, unsecured to the student, which IMO is pure idiocy. Just sunset with the whole mess, and make student loans purely secured debt in 5 years. By 2030 amenities campuses could be in the dustbin of history, good friggin riddance.
From a very early age, he encouraged a liberal arts education. His quip was “college is not where you go to get a job, it’s where you learn how to think.”
I took his advice and signed on for a $120k liberal arts program in 2002. I secured 50k in merit scholarships, got 10k from family, and the rest I aggressively self-funded through work. By 2007 I didn’t owe anyone a dime. It’s by far been the best investment I made in life. I took courses in probably 15 different subjects, including painting and Shakespearean Sonnets. The only major subjects I didn’t tackle were econ, philosophy, and sociology, and now looking back I wish that had taken those too.
On graduation day I wasn’t prepared for a career, but that hardly mattered. The world was my oyster and I had a fledgling understanding of how things worked. I eventually went back to obtain a practical degree that serves as the foundation of my career of the last 13 years.
To @DouglasR , the sticker price of higher education appears high (it is high), but it’s far from unobtainable, even for families of modest income. We invest $120/mo per kid from before they can talk, to age 18. That + where we’ll be able to cash flow the remaining tuition when they’re in school no one should have any student loans.
Like @Nick87 we also have a flexible approach where it’s not just 4-yr-degree at age 18 one-size-fits all. Maybe a kid wants to start a business, do an apprenticeship, military, whatever. We’ll try to help get them off to a promising career start. $$$ liberal arts is definitely not for everyone. Our society should get along just fine with 5% of the population on “thinking” courses of study. Let the families who can fork out that kind of dough pay for them on their own.
On the matter of loan forgiveness… there’s 100 ways to skin a cat and connect a young person to a productive career. One of the most popular is massive sums of debt secured by taxpayers, unsecured to the student, which IMO is pure idiocy. Just sunset with the whole mess, and make student loans purely secured debt in 5 years. By 2030 amenities campuses could be in the dustbin of history, good friggin riddance.
BrentD
Well-known member
Everyone has a different plan for their kids. Without question, there is more than one right answer. A friend of mine put his two sons through college, completely financed. They are both working awesome jobs (one at Cargill - he will run the company one day, watch out @VikingsGuy
). The other an engineer at Caterpillar). He wanted to launch them into the world well prepared, so they learned to work from the get go, and when they finished school, they had no albatross of debt around their necks.They did not have to worth their way through college to appreciate it. But appreciate it they did, and now they are highly successful. If they had to work at McDonalds for tuition money, they may not have spent time working in a materials-failure lab, learning outside the classroom or some other internship or important experience.
Pucky Freak
Well-known member
We’re aiming for 2 yrs CC + finish bachelors at a public in-state school, as a very loose guideline. If the kid wants to spend more it’s on them via scholarships, working, employer-funded tuition, etc. I agree that the ownership objective for the kid is key. I had WAY too many college classmates pissing away their education b/c parents funded the whole thing with no accountability or expectation from their kids. I think I skipped 1 day of class my entire undergrad (for deer opener), because I was paying so much for classes out of my own pocket.
VikingsGuy
Well-known member
Good point. With our oldest, there came a point where we were concerned about her commitment and so we changed the deal. Her last two years we had her take out loans. When she graduated we agreed to pay in full all the credits that resulted in B or better grades - but Cs or worse were going to be on her to pay off. She finished with only one C and got the best grades of her life those final years. We wrote the check and she had a trivial student loan left over. For our second, that kid will be straight As without our encouragement so we didn't bother. For our youngest, it would likely just create self-defeating stress as she climbs out of a hole. Every kid is different and we as parents have to be flexible in the circumstances.
BrentD
Well-known member
Congratulations. But there are so many different stories.
My undergrad was paid for by my parents entirely. Out of state too, but this was in the Bronze age when it was more reasonable. Anyway, I got out in 4 yrs, no grade lower than a B and I also skipped only one day - to go skiing my senior year.
In grad school, I was on my own 100%, but that is a very different thing in a STEM field.
Anyway, as Vikes just noted, every kid is different. Some you push, some you pull, some you just get the hell out of the way. Anything you can do proactively before they even enter college to encourage them to be aggressively engaged in their own education is critical.
Dakotakid
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20 pages and I can’t help but think of the quote about that we are always fighting the last war.
The landscape for college is very different now than when most of us went.
Addicting
Well-known member
And the vast majority of these kids who take out excessive loans qualify for the reserves. 6 year hitch with 4+ of that non deployable if they are using the right programs.
I got my degree with a measly 10k loan and Uncle Sam payed the rest of the tuition bill. Plus, I still have all of my GI Bill that I have to my kids.
Cost may have gone up but so has the payments the programs put out. Most kids just don’t want to work and like avoidable responsibilities.
Okay, to summarize this thread:
Everyone agrees college can be way to expensive.
Some feel there are still affordable college educations.
Some value a liberal arts education.
Some do not value a liberal arts education
Some do not value any college education
Everyone has their own view of how to pay for their kids education.
Some pay all.
Some pay some.
Some pay none.
Whew, that was a lot of hard work over 20 pages, but I think we nailed it! Problem solved. Next...
Everyone agrees college can be way to expensive.
Some feel there are still affordable college educations.
Some value a liberal arts education.
Some do not value a liberal arts education
Some do not value any college education
Everyone has their own view of how to pay for their kids education.
Some pay all.
Some pay some.
Some pay none.
Whew, that was a lot of hard work over 20 pages, but I think we nailed it! Problem solved. Next...
