UNIONS .. YEH ? or NEY ?

[dgibson]

As a funny (

) story I offer you the tale of a local plant. The union there went on strike a few years ago, and followed all the rules...picketing, no members crossing the line, etc., etc. The company had to keep producing to stay afloat during the strike, so they hired a bunch of "scabs" to temporarily fill the line until a resolution could be found.

The scabs proceeded to break production records like raw spaghetti.

So, the union workers stayed on strike for over four years; most finally had to break down and get other jobs because their union benefits just weren't enough to pay the bills. Finally the national union rescinded their backing of the strike, seeing it as a lost cause. Then the strikers had the choice of continuing without benefits or giving up. Naturally, they gave up. The vast majority of this issue was over some perceived reduction in retirement benefits.

So, all those workers essentially put themselves out of jobs. Admittedly, that's an extreme example of unions gone sour, but there it is.

YH, you make some good points regarding protection of employees. Unfortunately, I still believe that in many cases this "protection" is taken a little too far.

My father often said that the unions were a great deal of the reason factories were going overseas; they have priced themselves right out of employment. I can't argue with the fact that more and more companies are pulling up stakes and setting sail for China, Mexico, or wherever, where employees and production costs are much cheaper. Is it true that unions are cutting off their noses to spite their faces?

No need to get angry; we're all just having a conversation.

EDITED PART: Having done some research on the background of my little story, I find that--in the Union's point of view--the strike was about quite a bit more than retirement benefits. You can read more about the Great Betrayal in the union point of view at these websites:

http://solidarity.igc.org/atc/98Feeley.html
http://www.labornotes.org/archives/2002/05/f.html

Fascinating.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-31-2003 11:44: Message edited by: dgibson ]</font>

 

[pawclaws]

Naw YH the wage isn't fair everything is relative; kind of like what Santa was saying there. I remember going to the grocery store with a quarter and buying a loaf of bread and bringing home change! The bread today isn't a bit better; but now it's a buck sixty nine! To equalize across mediums of value for dissimilar commodities is really difficult. It involves a fair spectrum of economic rules and phenomenon which we never bother to think about. Exchanging "money" just makes it worse. What I like to do is this. Ask yourself; how much of my time is that thing worth? If I see something I think I need then I try to quantify my need in terms of lost time to acqire that thing. By the time I convert my "time" value back into money I still have lost in the long run but at least I've given it some thoughtful consideration. Then, there are terms of "quality". How much "quality" am I willing to exchange my resources for? You might be amazed how that word is tossed around without ever being defined byt the consumer or producer! Point is; relative based on perspective. If I believe that a union can do something for me that I can not do for myself than I might believe that a union is a good thing. Is it worth the price in terms of value, quality, resource exchanges or what I must lose in order to perceptually gain something else? Relative.

 

[Yukon Hunter]

dg-
Without having all the details, it looks to me that this is a perfect case in point for Union solidarity. Local 2036 goes on strike, for valid reasons (at least, certainly valid to their membership). The parent UAW doesn't support them in the manner the were hoping...in the manner they should have. The company hires scab workers, which they end up keeping. The members of the local get it in the neck. So much for solidarity.
Paws-
no, the bread is probably no better than it was. The question is, how much have wages gone up in the same time frame. I, too can recall when my parents bought our house for the then exhorbitant sum of close to $20,000. They then sold it 15 years later for around $160,000. Of course, during the same time frame, my father's wages went from ~12,000 a year to ~75,000.
Here's the question to ask yourself, once you start viewing all the huge increases in costs of goods and services you percieve over the last, say, 30 years. After considering what you pay out, are you better off financially now than you were then? Now look at the countries that are, historically, strongly Unionized- the U.S. (not so much anymore), Canada, Sweden, Denmark, Japan, etc... all countries that currently enjoy a VERY high standard of living. How 'bout those that are don't have a Union history? South Africa, Mexico, Malaysia, for example. Not one of these countries (and I picked them at random, then did the research) has a per capita GDP over $10,000.
While Unions drive up the price of goods and services, they also drive up the economy.
BTW, dg, the reason this subject pisses me off is because I face the same kind of thing in my workplace everyday- people who live off the sacrifices and hard work of other Union members, then question the Union's validity.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Most of my work experience has been in a non-union environment. The workers in the business I have been in for the last 25 years, title insurance, have not been hurt by not having a union, and I do not think they would have been helped in any significant way if they had been unionized. Qualified people (knowledgeable, technically skilled and with good people skills) are in demand and are highly paid. Benefits are great, though retirement depends mostly on participation in the 401k plans with company matching. The Human Resources Departments at all the companies I have worked for have been very concerned about proper procedures whenever anyone is fired or if a layoff is needed. They are just as concerned with all the other aspects - discrimination, harrassment, wrongful termination, etc. I really don't see how a union could better things. The people who have learned the trade and who work the hardest get the most money.

In the grocery strike going on here, I sympathize with a lot of the strikers. One is a guy I grew up with and who has worked for Ralph's for almost 30 years. His retirement shouldn't be messed with. However, he gets free medical and dental benefits - I have to pay for part (almost half?) of mine. They are being asked, through the new contract, to pay something like $15 or $25 a month of the cost of their benefits.

The reality is that Costco and Super Walmarts are taking business away from traditional grocery stores by virtue of lower costs. The employees at Costco and Walmart are not in the union and do get paid less - but the fact remains, if the regular grocery stores like Ralph's go out of business, the union workers are out of a job - period. So no one wins except the non-union stores and non-union employees who are still employed.

 

[Yukon Hunter]

McJobs are the bane of my existence. Someone making $5.00 an hour is one heck of a lot less likely to pump money back into the local economy than someone making $15.00. The problem is, it's every man for himself, and if a guy can save ten cents on a pound of butter by buying it at Wally World over Ralph's, he will.
Let's look at something like a pair of runners. It's fairly self-evident that buying American-made Union label runners would be better for the country in general. However, companies like Nike (grrrrr...) would rather use cheap, non-Union slave labor in the Far East. That way, they can pass the savings on to the consumer- oh, no, wait a minute- they DON'T pass any kind of savings along, do they? No, they line their pockets with huge profits.
Heck, I'd even support non-Unionized companies that treat their workers right. Look at the San Antonio Shoe Company in Maine- they gave each of their employees $1,000 cash bonuses for each year of employment- a class act by a small outfit. If corporate America could be counted on to be that classy, there wouldn't be much need for Unions.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Corporations do not exist to provide jobs. They exist to make a profit for their owners and/or stockholders. In public-traded companies, executives who make more profit for their bosses (the owners/stockholders) can ask for and get more money, just like the cabinetmaker who makes the best cabinets can get more money for his cabinets, and if he makes them faster, he gets even more money. Profit is not a bad word.

I have not researched Nike to know what their return on revenue is, so I cannot judge whether their profit is huge or not. If it costs them $10 billion to net a profit of $5 million, that is not a great return (5%) on investment regardless of how much or how little they pay their workers.

The company I work for is owned by one man. He likes to share, so his managers make great money. He likes to provide security and recognition for those who perform. This company has never had a lay off, which is highly unusual in this industry! He is a great person to work for, and throws a helluva Christmas Party and summer picnic for his employees. But that is his choice as the owner. Because he offers a great place to work, he attracts the best workers. So it still pays off for him. Is that benevolence on his part or strategy? Is he truly a giving person or a savvy businessman? Do we care, since he treats us well?

 

[Yukon Hunter]

You're right- corporations exist to make a profit. That doesn't mean the poor bastard who's busting his hump to help them make their profit doesn't warrant a fair share of it.
I'm glad you work for a fair and just employer. Not everyone is so lucky. The Yukon Territorial Government pays me a fair wage and benefit package in return for my services. I know they do. I helped make them in the last round of negotiations. Think they'd have given us our improved package out of the goodness of their heart? Heck, I could go to some non- Union jail in the U.S. and do the job I do now for ~$20,000 a year. Or, I could stay here, with a complete benefit package, and work for ~$60,000.
Thank God for the Union...

 

[schmalts]

O.K, i think we aired this out.
1, unions have good intentions
2, unions need to stop protecting slackers
3, unions need to start changing or they will fail, corperate greed is getting an upper hand and breaking unions.

 

[dgibson]

YH, you also get into a lot of "perceived worth" when it comes to compensation. For instance, our local police and firefighters get paid beans when compared to, say, the city manager or board of directors of the local power co-op. Many people view police officers and firefighters (and probably prison guards) as something that any reasonably intelligent person can do when given the proper training; but it takes someone "special" to run an entire city or power co-op. Or so the theory goes. It happens in my work, too; we engineers are considered the necessary evil and they will pay us as little as they possibly can.

I might agree with that to some extent, except when "the fan" starts turning. TV engineers prove their worth when equipment fails and money's being lost. Police and firefighters are expected to stand up and fight when everyone else runs away. Prison guards are expected to keep the evil contained so the rest can sleep at night. So should we really be scrimping on those services?

But, too, there's only so much money to go around in all of these instances, especially public service jobs. It's easier to pay one city manager well than to pay 100 cops well. A 10% raise for the police department is considerably more money than a 50% raise for the city manager. That money would have to come from somewhere.

I suppose I'm free-associating at this point.

 

[FLIPPER]

Yes...Sea Ray is non-union, and it is the highest wage paying company in the county. Gemtron Corp is who my wife works for...is the 2nd highest wage paying company in the county...it to is non-union. We both have stock plans...401k plans...profit sharing...quarterly and yearly bonus.

There "were" 2 union companies here...BUT...they both closed their plants...Westinghouse and Athens Stove Works. Why??? Because their employees chose to stand on the corner wanting another "dollar" instead of working

There are alot of companies that treat their employees fairly and compensate them accordingly...I guess that is why there is only 1 company within a 100 miles of here that is Union.


You do not have to have a Union to make a living or make a good living. Example: ask Moosie what he makes per year...as a NON-UNION worker?


FYI...at the Sea Ray plant I work at...we do not build any $45,000 boats

Take another look at the pic...a 70' will cost ya a bit more that $45k...like a couple of million more

 

[Whiskers]

WE have Viking Yacht locally owned, and its non-union. Guess what they don't pay anything, and employ mostly immigrants. Mexicans, Colombians, cause they work for next to nothing. The only people that work there make any money are the people in the office. That would be MANAGEMENT. Flipper your in the boat business you have heard of Viking they don't make a $45,000 boat either. Cheapest one is a couple of mill. Alan Jackson bought his boat there. Earnhardt bought his there.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-01-2004 09:10: Message edited by: Whiskers ]</font>

 

[brokfut]

I have belonged to the Teamsters and the IBEW at various times in my life and can honestly say both were pretty worthless. The never did anything for me. I was always able to find a job that paid just as well without the union's help. One job I had with the Teamsters actually paid less then minimum wage when all my time was calculated. I have zero use for unions.

 

[JohnSWA]

Now kids, if I have to stop this car.....


Ok, now here's a subject I could have a field day with. I'm a union member. I'm not only a union member, I'm the Treasurer for the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Associaton, Local 32!

Now before anyone gets there panties in a wad here. Let me explain a few things about unions and let me tell ya......You all are right in a lot of ways!

Unions were formed to help the laborer. Many years ago, unions were started because...yada yada yada. We all know our history so I don't have to get long winded about the history of unions.

The majority of large labor unions have lost their focus on the worker. Unions such as the Teamsters/ I.A.M/T.W.U. etc. are all part of one great membership, the AFL/CIO. In a sense these unions are part of another union! These unions have political agendas and their own lobbies that need money, lots of it to survive.

We've all heard the adage "Power Corrupts, and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely". Well unfortunately this has happened as it always does.

As Flightline Aircraft Mechanic at Boeing, I was paid very well. I was very happy with my wage and even happier with the proposed contract that we were all voting on. Unfortunately, as an I.A.M. member ALL employees vote at the same time for the same percentage raise. We as aircraft mechanics were greatly outnumbered by the lower wage employees that wanted rediculous increases in their ourly wage.

Naturally the contract was rejected and we went on strike. The funny thing was all of the folks that were hooting and hollering about the strike got sobered up really quick after the second week of the strike! No paychecks, but we sure got our strike benefit from the I.A.M. totalling $200 every two weeks. This strike lasted 3 months and the lay-offs were immediately after. Basically this strike achieved nothing more than putting people out of work not to mention the hardships put on families during the strike.

In my 14 years at Southwest Airlines 13 of them were as a Teamster. This union was and is the most corrupt union there is in my opinion. The Teamsters made secret deals with the company and negotiated contracts in bad faith. As an AFL/CIO affiliated union we would get all sorts of political mailings telling us who to voter for. The Teamsters would tell us what was good for us and we had better like it.

Last year we started a card drive to petition the National Mediation Board to allow a vote to let us decide if we wanted a democratic non AFL/CIO affiliated union represent us. The teamsters fought us tooth and nail and harrassed us with threats and phone calls.

Well, we were successful in breaking the bondage of the corruption laden Teamsters!

I am now a member of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association. There are no more secret deals with the company. All Letters of Agreement are voted on by the MEMBERS! Our dues are much cheaper then they were with the Teamsters and we do not fund any political lobbies. We also get to decide who WE want to vote for without any political propaganda mailings.

As I stated before, I'm the Treasurer for my union and I'm honored and proud to be elected by my peers to control the finances of our union! Did you know that ALL unions are non profit organizations and their finances are actually public record? Try getting the facts on your accounts at the the Teamsters or the IAM and see how far you get.

Back on the subject of whether unions are needed or not. In some cases yes, in a lot of cases no. I can only speak for my career field. I will post this in my next post becuause this is getting rather long winded.

 

[JohnSWA]

In my career field unions are a must! You, the flying public should be very concerned about this because safety and airworthiness is paramount to our craft.

All of the Major airlines are pushing for having their maintenance performed by outside vendors. This may not sound very scary at first, but when you see the whole picture you'll find that this is downright dangerous(no pun intended). In fact the FAA had to petition congress to halt all new contracts for outsourced aircraft maintenance for an investigaton on unsafe practices at outsource vendors!

When we get an aircraft back from an outsource vendor, it's scheduled for a heavy inhouse inspection before it's sent out for revenue service. You wouldn't believe the things we find!

You see, the union protects me from the the supervisor pushing me to get the aircraft out on time when the airworthiness is questionable. I've even dealt with pilots that want to fly an unsafe airplane because it's ending up at his home base!

As an aircraft mechanic, I have the authority to deem an aircraft airworthy or not, regardless what the pilot or foreman, supervisors say. Granted, I have to have my ducks in a row ie proof via the maintenanace manual.

Unfortunately, yes, unions do protect the dead weight. This is the burden of a democratic system where all members are equal and must be represented no matter how much of a slug this person is.

With corporate greed as rampant as it is today, I feel that unions are a must in certain career fields. Definitely in mine!

In fields where management will compromise safety to keep the "bottom line" unions are a must.

 

[pa mt man]

My first job was at Dravo Corp. and it was a union shop. Worked there from 1971 to 79 and it seemed like we were on strike more than we worked, at least thats what my father would always tell me. I know I vote no to unions.

 

[beardown]

I am a Sheet Metal worker and have worked both sides of the fence. I worked on high profile industrial jobs , like Intel,Motorolla,ASU Medical Labrotories and various hospitals around the state. I for one liked union better.For one it was nice to work around trained guys that treated the trade like a proffesion and not just some job to buy more beer or drugs. It was also the cleanest and most saffest job I ever worked on. It was also nice to work with guys that actually new what they were doing and did the best work FASTER than any non-union shop I've worked for. And the wages and benifits kicked every non-union shops ass by far!......But there is always a down side ......no work after that job......It sucks!!! But I did learn somthing, I will never work doing my trade for any non-union shop again......They arent worth my time and dont deserve the type of proffesional work and attitude I bring to the table! I'll mop floors at the adult arcade before I ever do any type of sheetmetal work for any money grubbin rats again!!!.....Thats why I bought my own equipment and do my own thing now.....plus I love to under bid those guys and do a better job because I've been union trained, they can't even compete, its like pay back time!!

 

[JoseCuervo]

It is interesting all the excuses for a Union that list "Corporate Greed" as a reason for needing a Union. I have never seen Mr. Corporate drive into a parking lot, and go to work. A Corporation is not a person with emotions and sins. It is a company owned by SHAREHOLDERS and hires Officers to manage the company for the best interest of the SHAREHOLDERS. Anything else is a failure of fiduciary responsibility.

Now, some companies may say they are "community focused" or "employee focused", but they are doing those activities only because it maximizes the long term sustainable wealth of the company's shareholders.

If a company is treating their employees poorly, production suffers, quality suffers, etc.. etc.. and the Shareholders suffer. It is then the shareholder's right to replace the officers of the company. You don't need unions, you need shareholders who will hold officers responsible.

Beardown,
Aren't you now a "non-union shop"? You say you won't work for a non-union shop, but then you say you work on your own. Are you union???

 

[brokfut]

Beardown,
Do you have employees? Are you a union shop or are you doing your work as an independent?
If you don't have employees then you are management, right? Bidding against all other shops, independent and union? Just wondering where your heart really is.

 

[kingfisher]

lets see... what have unions done for professional sports? They have driven the ticket price so high I can't afford to take my family to a game anymore unless I want a nose bleed seat.

They nixed the A-rod deal to Boston. A-Rod was willing to take a cut but the Union said no. They wanted to maintain the high ceiling for comparison so they could squeeze higher salaries in the future. They are all over paid now. Ask the old retired former players. They even think the present day players make too much.

I live in MI around the automotive plants. My father in law and dad are retired UAW members. The stories they tell me would make you sick. I have owned a machine shop. Wages are a big cost of over head. You can bet part of the reasons cars are over priced now are because of the unions.

Anytime an organization can hold a company hostage and use violence to support strikes. I would call them nothing more then organized crime, just like the mob.

Unions have been a part of alot Mfg. jobs going over seas.

 

[RogueWarrior1957]

I think someone has just about covered anything I would have brought to the table about corporate greed in the larger companies. When I joined I.B.E.W. 24 years ago, it was simply because it was a job requirement of a closed shop. Over the years, I've seen both good and bad. On the good side...The company I work for would have run rough-shod over everyone and made them work un-Godly hours for a pittance and cut the benefits along the way. At least the downsizings and layoffs have been handled uniformly, instead of picking favorites. Last man hired is the first out the door.

On the bad side, you can have a crew of say 4 men...one of them is a slacker, but he makes just as much as the three hitters. Pretty soon, the three hitters get the attitude that they are working their tails off while Joe Blow tootles around the shop all day and makes the same amount of money. That's a crock...I got into trouble for suggesting that the slackers be taken to task for making everyone else look bad. I was told that would never happen because of the legal ramifications that would result. Blame frivolous lawsuits and grievances for this.

I vote my conscience...not what some paid clown tells me that I have to do. I got into it with the main office of the AFL-CIO about all their unfounded propaganda about politics. I told them to keep their pamphlets...that I formed my own opinions.

On the humorous side...Paws...they do a good job when it comes to getting rid of evidence. JH was probably stuffed into the trunk of an old Buick, smeltered down and sent to Japan. I'm pretty sure the remainder of him is an integral part of my Nissan (built in Smyrna, TN from Japanese parts...where it supported Bubba, Raylene, and their ten kids for a month or two

) I'm pretty sure I drive him to work every day!

I have about 6-8 years to go for a 30 year retirement, hopefully. Then perhaps I can work for myself...or get a job as door-greeter in a large department store chain.

Perhaps at that time the only dues I will pay will be to organizations that I belong to: Sam's Club, Sportsman's Guide Preferred Customer, and etc. I won't slam the union too hard, because they've negotiated a good income for my family for a long time now...but I can see some of the problems as well.

Respectfully,