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Ukraine / Russia

CycleFishHunt said:
That the US, and other Western allies wanted friendlier leaders in Ukraine was no secret. I have seen nothing however that leads me to believe that the US played large hand in putting these events into motion. Supporting a change in government is one thing, but sponsoring a coup is another. If there is some concrete evidence of this, I'd surely love to see it.
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The argument, and I'm not adopting the perspective but simply relaying it for your curiosity, is that the US supports the change through NGOs that offer either on-the-ground support and supplies to protestors or financial support for the campaigns of favored politicians. That is, I think, the sort of surface level argument you'll see on the topic.
 
BigHornRam said:
This is the real problem with the soaring wheat and other grain prices. This article is from last fall. It was $8 back then. It's $11 today.

www.seattletimes.com

Soaring wheat prices are raising bread costs

Wheat prices are surging from the U.S. to Russia, hitting a record in Europe and raising bread costs all over the world. And there may not be much relief soon.
www.seattletimes.com www.seattletimes.com

"Protectionist measures: Russia — last season’s top shipper — started taxing exports this year to safeguard supplies and keep domestic costs in check, and signaled an overseas sales quota is likely. That’s helped to slow shipments and support prices elsewhere, while giving rival suppliers the chance to grab more market share.

— Import needs: Although top wheat buyer Egypt temporarily balked at high prices last month, appetite from importers remains strong, with Saudi Arabia booking more than double the expected amount in its latest tender. Countries typically stockpile several months of supply, but governments can’t risk running out before the next major harvests."
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USDA studies show the price of wheat accounts for 3-4% of a loaf of bread. So even if price doubles you are still counting increase price of bread at grocery store in pennies. The real food inflation is coming from other areas as already discussed.
 
RobertD said:
The Azov batallion is a formalized unit in the Ukrainian National Guard and if they aren't neo-Nazi they're damn close. They most certainly hold real (military) power in the Mariupol area.

That said, they aren't very large in number and don't seem to imply a significant presence of neo-Nazis in the broader Ukrainian government or whatever. But their significance to the conflict around Mariupol makes them pretty visible, so I can see where some of the takes about neo-Nazis could start with them.
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Yup. I am aware of their existence. You are absolutely correct that claims of neo-Nazism stick because it. The best bullshit always has elements of truth to it.

That they appear to be the only unit of its kind suggests to me that it's not something to be overly concerned out, and certainly not a direct threat to Russia.

That they are known by name also suggests to me that the pro-Russia media campaign is doing its job.
 
RobertD said:
The argument, and I'm not adopting the perspective but simply relaying it for your curiosity, is that the US supports the change through NGOs that offer either on-the-ground support and supplies to protestors or financial support for the campaigns of favored politicians. That is, I think, the sort of surface level argument you'll see on the topic.
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That is generally my understanding of how such things work as well. (The US has certainly done it in the past starting with the Italian election during the Truman years.)

Is there evidence that has happened here? I have not seen any. (Admittedly I have burned out a few times read up about it since their is so much garbage out there.)

And if we did, was it at a time, and to a degree that would have affected the outcome to those events?
 
Wind Gypsy said:
We have been funding literal nazis (the azov battalion)
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From this article in 2018
A little-noticed provision in the 2,232-page government spending bill passed last week bans U.S. arms from going to a controversial ultranationalist militia in Ukraine that has openly accepted neo-Nazis into its ranks.

House-passed spending bills for the past three years have included a ban on U.S. aid to Ukraine from going to the Azov Battalion, but the provision was stripped out before final passage each year.

This year, though, the $1.3 trillion omnibus spending bill signed into law last week stipulates that “none of the funds made available by this act may be used to provide arms, training or other assistance to the Azov Battalion.”
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I cannot say I love that US taxpayer dollars may have ended up in these guys' hands. Given the war, however, one could make the case that it was not 100% bad either.

Regardless, those who report that we are funding Nazis in Ukraine are severely misstating the facts.
 
CycleFishHunt said:
baffled by the neo-Nazi claims. They acknowledge the existence in neo-Nazis in the Ukraine, in the military, and elsewhere, but said the are very few in number, and hold no real power.
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I too am baffled by why this is a big deal here in the US, when we clearly have these same factions.

Per wiki they're basically everywhere.

White supremacy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
CycleFishHunt said:
From this article in 2018


I cannot say I love that US taxpayer dollars may have ended up in these guys' hands. Given the war, however, one could make the case that it was not 100% bad either.

Regardless, those who report that we are funding Nazis in Ukraine are severely misstating the facts.
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A lot of what I was trying to say is that we have been involved in the build up in an unflattering manner. I can see how reading my post indicates that we are currently funding the Azov directly when we are no longer doing so. Instead, we are giving weapons and aid to Ukraine who can pass it along to them, which is different.

The fact that there was a provision to strip funding for them included in the house spending bill for YEARS because of their neo-nazi affiliation that kept getting removed is embarrassing. Seriously, who looks at that and says “I think we should take that part out so we can keep funding the neo-nazis”.
 
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CycleFishHunt said:
That is generally my understanding of how such things work as well. (The US has certainly done it in the past starting with the Italian election during the Truman years.)

Is there evidence that has happened here? I have not seen any. (Admittedly I have burned out a few times read up about it since their is so much garbage out there.)

And if we did, was it at a time, and to a degree that would have affected the outcome to those events?
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Not really answering the specifics of your question but I assume you are you familiar with the Asst sec of state victoria nuland leaked call?

www.bbc.com

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

A transcript of the alleged conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt discussing the crisis in Ukraine.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
 
Wind Gypsy said:
Not really answering the specifics of your question but I assume you are you familiar with the Asst sec of state victoria nuland leaked call?

www.bbc.com

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

A transcript of the alleged conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt discussing the crisis in Ukraine.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
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Yes.

That (ridiculous and unflattering) call is certainly evidence of US trying to influence outcomes, but not what I’d call a “US sponsored coup”. I’ve seen that language around a lot, and means something very different to me. Maybe I’m splitting hairs.

The bottom line is that none of this justifies the atrocities Russia is committing right now.
 
"President Biden on Saturday said that Russian President Vladimir Putin "cannot remain in power," as he declared the Russian invasion of Ukraine a "strategic failure" while pledging continued support for the embattled Ukrainian people."

Well, that should certainly help. Nothing like threatening a nuclear-armed sociopath with regime change. I know the WH walked it back, but that's twice in the last week he has made huge misspeaks. Along with Graham and Cotton, he needs to cool the rhetoric. At least Joe can blame senility; the others have no excuse.
 
Wind Gypsy said:
A lot of what I was trying to say is that we have been involved in the build up in an unflattering manner. I can see how reading my post indicates that we are currently funding the Azov directly when we are no longer doing so. Instead, we are giving weapons and aid to Ukraine who can pass it along to them, which is different.

The fact that there was a provision to strip funding for them included in the house spending bill for YEARS because of their neo-nazi affiliation that kept getting removed is embarrassing. Seriously, who looks at that and says “I think we should take that part out so we can keep funding the neo-nazis”.
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I am not ok with giving arms to nazis, but "enemy of my enemy is my friend" has been a long-standing pillar in US foreign policy. Not always to great outcomes - see afghan fighters we supported in the 80s and how they have behaved since.
 
longbow51 said:
"President Biden on Saturday said that Russian President Vladimir Putin "cannot remain in power," as he declared the Russian invasion of Ukraine a "strategic failure" while pledging continued support for the embattled Ukrainian people."

Well, that should certainly help. Nothing like threatening a nuclear-armed sociopath with regime change. I know the WH walked it back, but that's twice in the last week he has made huge misspeaks. Along with Graham and Cotton, he needs to cool the rhetoric. At least Joe can blame senility; the others have no excuse.
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Good god, can't we filter his mic through a dump button?
 
longbow51 said:
"President Biden on Saturday said that Russian President Vladimir Putin "cannot remain in power," as he declared the Russian invasion of Ukraine a "strategic failure" while pledging continued support for the embattled Ukrainian people."

Well, that should certainly help. Nothing like threatening a nuclear-armed sociopath with regime change. I know the WH walked it back, but that's twice in the last week he has made huge misspeaks. Along with Graham and Cotton, he needs to cool the rhetoric. At least Joe can blame senility; the others have no excuse.
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Most of us on this thread agree with the sentiment - but what a dumb thing for a POTUS to say at this stage of things.
 
VikingsGuy said:
Most of us on this thread agree with the sentiment - but what a dumb thing for a POTUS to say at this stage of things.
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We should be incredibly alarmed at how inept our leadership is right now at nearly every level of the organization called the United States, but in particular at the top.

This is not an equivocation, but imagine if the shoe were on the other foot. The leader of the free world just needlessly exacerbated a situation in which thousands of innocents are dying. To look away from this and what those words mean and how escalation could work and not find it unacceptable is magical thinking.

We are in desperate need of people who love their country more than their power.

 
Nameless Range said:
We should be incredibly alarmed at how inept our leadership is right now at nearly every level of the organization called the United States, but in particular at the top.

This is not an equivocation, but imagine if the shoe were on the other foot. The leader of the free world just needlessly exacerbated a situation in which thousands of innocents are dying. To look away from this and what those words mean and how escalation could work and not find it unacceptable is magical thinking.

We are in desperate need of people who love their country more than their power.

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Been waiting 40 years for a truly qualified American candidate to run,as opposed to what we have been getting.
 
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