Nick87
Well-known member
I dont even know where to start. @SnowyMountaineer response is probably best. You can't fix stupid.
Thinking of buying an O/A shotgun
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OntarioHunter
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To debunk the O/U lightweight myth the "smart" ones are pushing on this thread.
From the manufacturers' websites:
Browning Citori O/U with 28" barrels = 7 lbs 6 oz
Beretta A400 Xplor semiauto with 30" barrel = 6.7 lbs (two inches longer barrel yet a pound lighter)
Remington Wingmaster pump with 28" barrel = 7 lbs 8 oz (essentially the same weight as the Citori).
All three weights are for guns dressed in walnut.
Now, you can find aluminum receiver O/Us from Turkey that are a bit lighter but good luck keeping them tight. There's a reason the quality gun makers stay away from aluminum for those types of shotguns. And yes, an upland O/U sawed off to 26" will be much lighter. But modern pumps or autos similarly cut down will be as light or even lighter.
So what are the "real" advantages of an O/U for upland hunting? Lighter weight is a myth. Toss that one. More "lively"? Another myth. Two barrels won't swing any more livelier than one if both guns have the same length barrels. How about balance? Really too many factors in play to say one style has an advantage over another. For example, my heavy old 31" A5 Magnum (possibly the heaviest 12 gauge single barrel shotgun ever made) is perfectly balanced just ahead of where the fore end meets the receiver. I can carry it one-handed with ease. But it's wearing lightweight aftermarket synthetic and in the pheasant fields there's an added heavy steel conversion tube slipped over the magazine so it can shoot with 2.75" barrel spring and friction brake (the factory 3" spring and brakes won't cycle lighter loads reliably). Fit also depends on the gun and shooter. I make my A5 fit me by adding a slip-on to lengthen LOP. Otherwise I'm shooting high. Most new quality shotguns (and even some of the cheaper guns) come with shims to make the fit adjustable. However, this is less common with O/U because of the design of trigger tang that extends into the stock makes it difficult to change the cant. There are several other ways to adjust fit externally, though usually not very aesthetic. The best way to check fit is to pattern quickly, mounting and firing at the target all in one smooth motion like you would at birds in the field. Don't aim the gun. That makes you fit the gun. But you want to know how well the gun fits you. Let's see ... what other possible advantages does an O/U have? Quick firing? Actually besides the need for quick follow up shots being grossly overrated, it seems this too is a myth. The light recoil gas autos (especially Beretta) are very fast shooters and I have watched a kid shooting sporting clays who could cycle an 870 like lightning ... and hit the targets. The key to making fast follow up shots that count is reduced recoil and muzzle jump. Ain't going to get that with a "lightweight" fixed breech O/U (if they are lightweight ... which they aren't). How about portability? Here the O/U falls down badly. They are not fun to carry, especially broken open (and definitely not fun to walk beside someone carrying one broken on their shoulder!). Anyone can stroll into Cabelas, buy what they need to make a pump or auto slingable, and do it themselves at home, but it takes an expensive trip to the gunsmith for fitting a barrel band to put a sling on an O/U. One category where O/U might have an advantage is reliability. But I think even that advantage fades when stacked against a pump action. Does an O/U "swing" better. They swing well because they are not lightweight. But do they swing better than a similar weight auto or pump? I can't see why they would. Mine sure doesn't. Methinks it's another myth. Having the extra shot is certainly a clear advantage for autos and pumps. Sometimes, though certainly not often, I'll muff the first shot at a rooster (usually trying to hit it in the head at very close range) and ding him with the second shot. Good to have a third shell to seal the deal. Sex appeal is perhaps the only thing O/U has going for it. If putting on a style show matters then an O/U is the gun for you. I hunt hard and I generally hunt alone so appearances is at the bottom of my priorities. But that's me.
From the manufacturers' websites:
Browning Citori O/U with 28" barrels = 7 lbs 6 oz
Beretta A400 Xplor semiauto with 30" barrel = 6.7 lbs (two inches longer barrel yet a pound lighter)
Remington Wingmaster pump with 28" barrel = 7 lbs 8 oz (essentially the same weight as the Citori).
All three weights are for guns dressed in walnut.
Now, you can find aluminum receiver O/Us from Turkey that are a bit lighter but good luck keeping them tight. There's a reason the quality gun makers stay away from aluminum for those types of shotguns. And yes, an upland O/U sawed off to 26" will be much lighter. But modern pumps or autos similarly cut down will be as light or even lighter.
So what are the "real" advantages of an O/U for upland hunting? Lighter weight is a myth. Toss that one. More "lively"? Another myth. Two barrels won't swing any more livelier than one if both guns have the same length barrels. How about balance? Really too many factors in play to say one style has an advantage over another. For example, my heavy old 31" A5 Magnum (possibly the heaviest 12 gauge single barrel shotgun ever made) is perfectly balanced just ahead of where the fore end meets the receiver. I can carry it one-handed with ease. But it's wearing lightweight aftermarket synthetic and in the pheasant fields there's an added heavy steel conversion tube slipped over the magazine so it can shoot with 2.75" barrel spring and friction brake (the factory 3" spring and brakes won't cycle lighter loads reliably). Fit also depends on the gun and shooter. I make my A5 fit me by adding a slip-on to lengthen LOP. Otherwise I'm shooting high. Most new quality shotguns (and even some of the cheaper guns) come with shims to make the fit adjustable. However, this is less common with O/U because of the design of trigger tang that extends into the stock makes it difficult to change the cant. There are several other ways to adjust fit externally, though usually not very aesthetic. The best way to check fit is to pattern quickly, mounting and firing at the target all in one smooth motion like you would at birds in the field. Don't aim the gun. That makes you fit the gun. But you want to know how well the gun fits you. Let's see ... what other possible advantages does an O/U have? Quick firing? Actually besides the need for quick follow up shots being grossly overrated, it seems this too is a myth. The light recoil gas autos (especially Beretta) are very fast shooters and I have watched a kid shooting sporting clays who could cycle an 870 like lightning ... and hit the targets. The key to making fast follow up shots that count is reduced recoil and muzzle jump. Ain't going to get that with a "lightweight" fixed breech O/U (if they are lightweight ... which they aren't). How about portability? Here the O/U falls down badly. They are not fun to carry, especially broken open (and definitely not fun to walk beside someone carrying one broken on their shoulder!). Anyone can stroll into Cabelas, buy what they need to make a pump or auto slingable, and do it themselves at home, but it takes an expensive trip to the gunsmith for fitting a barrel band to put a sling on an O/U. One category where O/U might have an advantage is reliability. But I think even that advantage fades when stacked against a pump action. Does an O/U "swing" better. They swing well because they are not lightweight. But do they swing better than a similar weight auto or pump? I can't see why they would. Mine sure doesn't. Methinks it's another myth. Having the extra shot is certainly a clear advantage for autos and pumps. Sometimes, though certainly not often, I'll muff the first shot at a rooster (usually trying to hit it in the head at very close range) and ding him with the second shot. Good to have a third shell to seal the deal. Sex appeal is perhaps the only thing O/U has going for it. If putting on a style show matters then an O/U is the gun for you. I hunt hard and I generally hunt alone so appearances is at the bottom of my priorities. But that's me.
Caesar Guerini Tempio Light in a 20 with 28" barrel 5#10oz
The 12 goes 6#.
gueriniusa.com
The 12 goes 6#.
Tempio Light - Caesar Guerini USA
gueriniusa.com
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huronmtns
Well-known member
An O/U gun has a shorter action than a pump or semi-auto. I just measured my 870 against my Red Label. The difference to the barrel from the stock recoil pad is 3.5". This shortens the total gun length if barrel lengths are the same. Hunting thick cover for grouse and woodcock this shorter length makes a difference!
The O/U is faster shooting than a pump too.
The O/U is faster shooting than a pump too.
D
Deleted member 16014
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Dang you're a classier human than I thought.Caesar Guerini Tempio Light in a 20 with 28" barrel (my upland gun) 5#10oz
The 12 goes 6#.
Tempio Light - Caesar Guerini USA
R
rwc101
Guest
If someone wants an O/U they're not going to be happy with buying a semi-auto no matter how good of a shotgun it is. Debating peoples' preferences is absolutely pointless.
Stick with your original thoughts.Dang you're a classier human than I thought.
I bought it used.I am still working on that Canada conversion rate for 1#.
Irrelevant
Well-known member
You know, I've been meaning to chat with you about that. I mean we're both chukar hunters right? And we both know the point of chukar hunting is not to fill your vest with birds, it's to unload all that lead you just packed up the mountain so you don't have to carry it back down. And I'll telling you, you need an auto. I can spray three shots of lead between when my feet first slip out from under me and my ass hits the ground... now that's efficiency!
OntarioHunter
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The pricetag ain't lightweight!Caesar Guerini Tempio Light in a 20 with 28" barrel 5#10oz
The 12 goes 6#.
Tempio Light - Caesar Guerini USA
D
Deleted member 16014
Guest
Just think how much it would be in Looney's and Twoney's.
Worth it. It doesn't miss.
OntarioHunter
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Well, 3.5" overall length is a significant difference for sure. I wondered why those 26" O/Us at the club were almost as noisy as the one fella's riot gun 870. Must be dang near as short. Now we could debate whether a short gun is whippier and harder to shoot well but in grouse woods it really doesn't matter much. Just getting off a shot is the challenge. A short gun is undoubtedly handier. In the old days when I had horses and lived in Montana I shot them with a very short gun ... Smith K22. I don't bother with "partridge" much now. Price of gas and the mob of nimrods from Down East scouting for moose doesn't turn my crank. I prefer to drive thirty minutes for waterfowl that fill the sky. And no one bothers us. Don't have to worry about my dogs getting shot ... which nearly happened several years ago.
Perhaps I should turn this Citori over to my daughter. She is a good sized gal (unlike her mom who was 4'10" and 85 lbs) but still has difficulty handling my Light Twelve A5's length. She shoots it well enough but inconsistent. Shorter length to fore end grip might help. She should be okay with 1 oz recoil.
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morley.tyler
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Obviously you don’t get it. Your talks of bourbon give you away. All great shotgun aficionados know that corn mash is too pedestrian. While the discerning pallet requires a fine, single malt scotch.
I’ve always enjoyed the poetic waxing of the Proletariat.
morley.tyler
Well-known member
Whatever happened to the stereotype of Canadians being so nice and polite?
OntarioHunter
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Alas, born in Idaho and raised in Montana. American roots run too deep I guess.
About two months ago a young lad at skeet had his cheap Turkish Mossberg O/U break down for the second time. Another broken firing pin. He really struggled shooting that little POS. While he was waiting for another firing pin TO BE BUILT, another club member loaned him his Benelli auto. No frills black plastic and punishing inertia operated but the kid can shoot it lights out. He's now shopping for another gun (obviously the Turkish thing is not getting another chance ... he's going to sell it to some other sucker). So he's been trying other guns, but only O/U (including my Citori, which he didn't shoot well, and another guy's Red Lable). "Jeezus Jacob, you're cleaning up with that Benelli auto. Even top gun at clays one week. Why not stick with it?" "Oh, there's something about an O/U in my hands. They are special." Well, there you go. Is an O/U really special because he thinks it is ... or because he's supposed to think it is? As a business historian that question has always intrigued (and frustrated) me. Do manufacturers respond to a demand for certain products or do they make it with creative advertising? Sometimes the answer is clear enough. Sometimes not so much. I decided a long time ago I want no part of being shaped by corporate America. I form my choices based on what works best for me, not what the magazines or media says is the thing to do. A lot of the fancy gun toters at the club think I'm nuts because I'm rich and shooting that ugly old hulk. But they don't laugh at my scores. I bought a fancy O/U last year and the scores didn't improve (considering I'm half blind, I didn't expect they would ... 23/25 average is about as good as it can get for an old blind guy). Anyway, it never hurts to look at all the options with an open mind. That's why we have them (minds and options). Weigh the pros and cons. Am I buying this gun because ... just because. Or will something else actually work better. Remember, if it works better, it kills birds better, and they deserve the best effort. Always. Cosmetics can prevail on the range. Wounded clays don't suffer.
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morley.tyler
Well-known member
I’m not disagreeing w/ your premise, at all. I shot a Perazzi for a number of years on the Sporting course and skeet field, until I developed a flinch. Moved to a Beretta 391. No apologies.
But what is best for me may not be best for the next guy.
npaden
Well-known member
Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner! One thing about the internet, if you read with your eyes and mind open you can find that there are a lot of different ways to accomplish the same thing. Just because you've done it one way for a long time doesn't mean that is the only way to do it.
I've been shooting a Turkish Yildiz O/U shotgun for nearly 15 years now. I'm happy with it. It fits me well. Never had an issue that a good cleaning didn't fix. I don't remember the exact price I paid, but I know it was under $400. I've killed a pile of dove and quail with it over those years. Even killed a turkey with it shooting 3" magnums out of it with the full choke that it came with screwed in. (It was very painful patterning it with different turkey loads though). It cost 1/3rd the price we paid for my son's Benelli semi-auto so I must be a O/U snob because I am happy with it and haven't gone out and bought me a new Benelli.
You're wrong, eh.
buffybr
Well-known member
Many years ago when I was back in college I used to hang out a lot in one of the local gun stores. The store owner had a side by side, double trigger 10 gauge shotgun on his wall. I was fairly new to shotguns back then so I asked him about that gun.
He said he bought it for goose hunting and the first time he took it out a goose flew over, he had a finger on each trigger and when he pulled the front trigger the recoil made him pull the second trigger which then knocked him flat on his back on the ground. He said that gun had been hanging on the wall in his shop ever since.
huronmtns
Well-known member
I went out this afternoon and covered about a mile of this cover. Flushed one woodcock and took the shot. Blasted a hole about 12" diameter through the tree canopy. The branches deflected or blocked the shot pattern enough that the bird made a clean get away. This type of cover is what a short O/U action gun is all about.
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