NR Upland Seasons (LC3901)

[OzWildlife]

I'm not a Montanan but I spend some time there each fall. I follow our own legislative activities in my own state, but don't fully understand the process in Montana. LC3901 pushes the NR opening day back 10-days for all upland species with the exception of mountain grouse. What is an LC bill? Is it a bill at all or something else? I don't know that I'm necessarily opposed to waiting 10-days. I'm just curious how the process works.

 

[OzWildlife]

Ok. Now this is Senate Bill 514. It has passed the Senate and now moves to the House for consideration. It essentially directs FWP to allow residents to hunt 10-days sooner than non-residents on publicly accessible lands.

 

[Muleyassassin406]

Ok. Now this is Senate Bill 514. It has passed the Senate and now moves to the House for consideration. It essentially directs FWP to allow residents to hunt 10-days sooner than non-residents on publicly accessible lands.

Finally a small step in the right direction!

 

[cgasner1]

Ok. Now this is Senate Bill 514. It has passed the Senate and now moves to the House for consideration. It essentially directs FWP to allow residents to hunt 10-days sooner than non-residents on publicly accessible lands.

As per normal a few people ruined it for everyone.

 

[OzWildlife]

I'm torn whether this is good or bad. I do get it. Crummy NRs like me bringing 5-6 dogs and stomping around pushing out residents with no dog or maybe one dog, basically ruining opportunity for residents during what many consider the best part of the season. On the other hand there are 30 million acres of public land and 6-7 million acres of block management in MT with about 10,000 NR upland hunters (as estimated by FWP). The data is janky at best but in Kansas KDWP issues about 50,000 NR licenses and there are about 1.5 million acres of publicly accessible land. I say janky because it's difficult to ascertain how many of those are upland hunters. I'll just assume the same 10,000 NRs are coming to KS that are going to MT and if that's the case the density is 150 acres per hunter in KS and 3,600 acres per hunter in MT. Even if it's just 1,000 NRs coming to KS it's still more than double the density. Now we all know not all of that land is good upland land in either state, so take my numbers with a grain of salt. I just don't like the thought of vilifying NRs. It's crowded everywhere right now. We all need to be working on access to quality hunting, regardless of where we live or where we hunt.

 

[Montana_Wanderer]

I avoid crowds like the plague when hunting so this is a welcome change for me. We have long bird seasons so there is still plenty of time to hunt. This could make it better for residents and non-residents. Yes, residents may get first crack at the uneducated birds, but I know I won't be hunting the week all the non-residents show up. May limit the pressure for all.

 

[INMT]

I’ve stated this in another thread, but pheasant opener and antelope opener overlap. I think this will help lesson pressure for antelope opener too. They share the same habitat and I’ve had mixed results sharing the same ground

 

[cgasner1]

I'm torn whether this is good or bad. I do get it. Crummy NRs like me bringing 5-6 dogs and stomping around pushing out residents with no dog or maybe one dog, basically ruining opportunity for residents during what many consider the best part of the season. On the other hand there are 30 million acres of public land and 6-7 million acres of block management in MT with about 10,000 NR upland hunters (as estimated by FWP). The data is janky at best but in Kansas KDWP issues about 50,000 NR licenses and there are about 1.5 million acres of publicly accessible land. I say janky because it's difficult to ascertain how many of those are upland hunters. I'll just assume the same 10,000 NRs are coming to KS that are going to MT and if that's the case the density is 150 acres per hunter in KS and 3,600 acres per hunter in MT. Even if it's just 1,000 NRs coming to KS it's still more than double the density. Now we all know not all of that land is good upland land in either state, so take my numbers with a grain of salt. I just don't like the thought of vilifying NRs. It's crowded everywhere right now. We all need to be working on access to quality hunting, regardless of where we live or where we hunt.

I was told we have nr bring dogs up by the semi load to train them on birds prior to season then stay and blast anything then leave.

 

[Pagosa]

I'm torn whether this is good or bad. I do get it. Crummy NRs like me bringing 5-6 dogs and stomping around pushing out residents with no dog or maybe one dog, basically ruining opportunity for residents during what many consider the best part of the season. On the other hand there are 30 million acres of public land and 6-7 million acres of block management in MT with about 10,000 NR upland hunters (as estimated by FWP). The data is janky at best but in Kansas KDWP issues about 50,000 NR licenses and there are about 1.5 million acres of publicly accessible land. I say janky because it's difficult to ascertain how many of those are upland hunters. I'll just assume the same 10,000 NRs are coming to KS that are going to MT and if that's the case the density is 150 acres per hunter in KS and 3,600 acres per hunter in MT. Even if it's just 1,000 NRs coming to KS it's still more than double the density. Now we all know not all of that land is good upland land in either state, so take my numbers with a grain of salt. I just don't like the thought of vilifying NRs. It's crowded everywhere right now. We all need to be working on access to quality hunting, regardless of where we live or where we hunt.

It's pretty eye - opening to see the amount of nonresident bird hunters that hunt around upland hotspots in the eastern 1/3 of MT in September and early October. I would guess around Baker/Sidney MT this past fall it was 10-1 nr:residents. Big game animals don't know if they are hunting birds or big game.
I used to hunt late season in central KS and SD when I was living in northern Oklahoma in the early 2000s and MT has considerable more pressure from upland bird hunters. I believe one reason is that Montana opens up bird season before the big game season in the Midwest, and back east. I'm not opposed to nonresidents hunting pressure but it just needs to be spread out over the course of the season.

 

[Muleyassassin406]

It's pretty eye - opening to see the amount of nonresident bird hunters that hunt around upland hotspots in the eastern 1/3 of MT in September and early October. I would guess around Baker/Sidney MT this past fall it was 10-1 nr:residents. Big game animals don't know if they are hunting birds or big game.
I used to hunt late season in central KS and SD when I was living in northern Oklahoma in the early 2000s and MT has considerable more pressure from upland bird hunters. I believe one reason is that Montana opens up bird season before the big game season in the Midwest, and back east. I'm not opposed to nonresidents hunting pressure but it just needs to be spread out over the course of the season.

You should see it from Malta to the nd border! It’s insane how many nr are stacked like cord wood in this country. It’s borderline gross

 

[Hunting Wife]

I have pics of a guy that was camped at the Plentywood fairgrounds for two straight months (August and September) with 57 dogs in a horse trailer. Training on public land sharpies because “they hold nice”.

The 10 day resident only opener is the same thing they do in ND. Seems like it is a decent compromise, and they don’t see nearly the same dog training shenanigans as NE MT does.

 

[INMT]

I have pics of a guy that was camped at the Plentywood fairgrounds for two straight months (August and September) with 57 dogs in a horse trailer. Training on public land sharpies because “they hold nice”.

The 10 day resident only opener is the same thing they do in ND. Seems like it is a decent compromise, and they don’t see nearly the same dog training shenanigans as NE MT does.

Stories like that are wild, but necessary to understand the extent of what is going on. Never experienced it to that degree in R4 but thank you for sharing.

 

[Pagosa]

There is guy south of Wibaux that spends months out there in July-August from GA chasing birds.

 

[Goodfish]

I’ve missed it all. I wait until the snakes go to bed!

 

[Matthew57]

I'm torn whether this is good or bad. I do get it. Crummy NRs like me bringing 5-6 dogs and stomping around pushing out residents with no dog or maybe one dog, basically ruining opportunity for residents during what many consider the best part of the season. On the other hand there are 30 million acres of public land and 6-7 million acres of block management in MT with about 10,000 NR upland hunters (as estimated by FWP). The data is janky at best but in Kansas KDWP issues about 50,000 NR licenses and there are about 1.5 million acres of publicly accessible land. I say janky because it's difficult to ascertain how many of those are upland hunters. I'll just assume the same 10,000 NRs are coming to KS that are going to MT and if that's the case the density is 150 acres per hunter in KS and 3,600 acres per hunter in MT. Even if it's just 1,000 NRs coming to KS it's still more than double the density. Now we all know not all of that land is good upland land in either state, so take my numbers with a grain of salt. I just don't like the thought of vilifying NRs. It's crowded everywhere right now. We all need to be working on access to quality hunting, regardless of where we live or where we hunt.

If I was a resident of Montana or Kansas I wouldn’t want nonresidents crowding me in either case.

 

[300stw]

I have pics of a guy that was camped at the Plentywood fairgrounds for two straight months (August and September) with 57 dogs in a horse trailer. Training on public land sharpies because “they hold nice”.

The 10 day resident only opener is the same thing they do in ND. Seems like it is a decent compromise, and they don’t see nearly the same dog training shenanigans as NE MT does.

everyone think about dog trainers for a minute, their job is put dogs on birds. point , hold and retreive them, the guy with 57 dogs. how many birds does he shoot, but, how many covies does he wipeout completely,
they have the time to cover every accesible piece of land, mark every covey of huns and sharpies during the training season,
then when harvest season opens,,

if they shoot 1 bird per dog, unlikely, and there are 30,40 guys doing this, besides everyguy with 1,4 dogs, harvest rates from non res bird hunters are tremendous,
spend some time in a bar or resturant and just listen, dont talk,,,, and what you hear about harvest rates will amaze a person

after spending 16 years in the 4 ne counties, being in the field 6 days a week working from apr to dec, i have pretty good knoweldge, of the amount of non res, in that area,
if those same numbers, as mentioned earlier ,were spread out across the whole state, it would paint a different picture,

 

[406dn]

everyone think about dog trainers for a minute, their job is put dogs on birds. point , hold and retreive them, the guy with 57 dogs. how many birds does he shoot, but, how many covies does he wipeout completely,
they have the time to cover every accesible piece of land, mark every covey of huns and sharpies during the training season,
then when harvest season opens,,

if they shoot 1 bird per dog, unlikely, and there are 30,40 guys doing this, besides everyguy with 1,4 dogs, harvest rates from non res bird hunters are tremendous,
spend some time in a bar or resturant and just listen, dont talk,,,, and what you hear about harvest rates will amaze a person

after spending 16 years in the 4 ne counties, being in the field 6 days a week working from apr to dec, i have pretty good knoweldge, of the amount of non res, in that area,
if those same numbers, as mentioned earlier ,were spread out across the whole state, it would paint a different picture,

I am a horseback pointing field trialer. I have never had a large string of dogs. The overwhelming percentage of horseback trialers hunt little, if at all. The birds are worth more to them for training, than hunting. There was a time, when I was much younger, when I'd kill a hundred birds a year, between sharptails, huns and pheasants. Over the last decade, I have killed maybe a couple dozen, some years none.

I am sure there are some of them killing birds, but most of them are far more interested in getting their dogs into birds, to teach them bird manners.

I have trained on the same ranch for over 20 years. The birds are still there. When the bird season opens for hunters, the birds I have trained on, still hold well, for the hunters' dogs.

 

[2ski]

I bet as others are alluding to, this is in retaliation to some extent for the bill 2 years ago allowing nr's to come train their dogs on wild birds. I know of a trainer from Texas that comes up to Montana for the whole summer and trains. Granted he trains retrievers and it's not on wild birds. But it goes to show that they are here doing it.

 

[406dn]

For a good long time, non resident dog trainers could come and train their dogs, with no license or meaningful rules. Maybe a couple of years ago, if you trained outside of hunting seasons, you needed a license resident or non resident, and some off limits dates set.

The rules were different for residents, than for non residents. Effectively now, it is not feasible for a non resident trainer to train their dogs on public land. They can still train on private land, if they get permission.

I think it is a combination of the trainers, and non resident hunters that is the motivation for this bill. There was a bill in the last session, restricting non resident hunters to a modest number of days. It was sailing thru, until business owners from NE Montana lobbied against the bill. So, it died.

On balance I would like this bill. It gives a father and child a first crack at the birds, before the non resident hunters arrive. It will be interesting to see how this alters hunting pressure. I think the ten days before they can hunt pheasants, will reduce the number that come in September, and leave some time in November.

 

[OzWildlife]

Great discussion. Appreciate the different perspectives. I’ve always said it’s a really good thing birds don’t have antlers. Bird hunters are so cordial. Not that I don’t kill antlered stuff!

I’m not a dog trainer, but I do run 7 dogs. I just like hunting dogs. I started going to MT from KS regularly 12 years ago. I had always wanted to go back just never had the means. My grandpa took me there maybe 35 years ago the first time. It was a dream. When I finally got the means myself I started going. Now I hunt 8-9 states each year, probably pushing 50 days of upland each year…most of it in KS. I’ve worked hard in my life to do this and it’s all I do basically outside of work. Some I make the opener and others I don’t. I tent camp. I guess the perspective I’m trying to present is one of passion for the dogs and birds. Not all of us are in it for the training, guiding, or money. I’m a non-resident but I’m still a guy who just loves to hunt birds behind dogs like a lot of you. Even the guys that are in it for training and guiding they have their own passions they are living out. The bottom line is NRs are not villains. They are guys mostly like every other bird hunter.

I do support the bill in MT. I just want everyone else to support it for reasons other than thinking NRs are villains.