Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[cgasner1]

Not arguing with you, but what are your methods of aging from “personal observation of what I have seen as an average harvest and in the field sightings of bucks while hunting.”

That 80% plus of bucks killed are 2x3 which I don’t have an issue with. I think that they probably see 10% of deer harvest in a check station and 50% of that number is over a 4x4

 

[INMT]

That 80% plus of bucks killed are 2x3 which I don’t have an issue with. I think that they probably see 10% of deer harvest in a check station and 50% of that number is over a 4x4

That’s fine, just curious how he’s aging by observation of harvest and field sightings.

 

[cgasner1]

That’s fine, just curious how he’s aging by observation of harvest and field sightings.

I can’t speak for him that’s just what I see in the field. One day I drove by a camp 6 bucks hanging with 7 guys best buck was a 2x3 they had a great trip.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I’ll preface my remarks with the fact that I haven’t listened to the podcast yet. With that said….

I’m skeptical that the median buck harvest is 4.5 years old. Are they saying that 50% of all bucks harvested are older than 4.5 years???? I call BS. I would want to see some proof of that statistic in the form of cementum aging with documentation rather than check station estimates.

Many bucks can be 4xsomething at 2 1/2 and any buck with the genetic potential to ever be 4xsomethingwill certainly express that by 3 1/2.

Is there any additional information on whether that 4 point count is inclusive of a brow tine or exclusive?

I’m assuming they’re counting any buck with 4 antler points longer than 1” on one side as a 4x?

Yes. "Median" means 50 percent are older/younger as its the "true" middle of the data. Depending on what youre looking at - its a better statistical measure than average. I think the antler questions again were survey answers and/or based on observations. It had to have come from somewhere - but the numbers will be hard to refute if thats the data they have to go on.

All the more reason mandatory reporting is necessary.

 

[INMT]

I can’t speak for him that’s just what I see in the field. One day I drove by a camp 6 bucks hanging with 7 guys best buck was a 2x3 they had a great trip.

To rephrase what I was asking, how is he judging age in the field? It seemed like he was saying that you can’t age by counting points. Which I agree with.

A forky or a 2x3 can be far older than a 4x4 etc.

Just curious again not arguing.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Not arguing with you, but what are your methods of aging from “personal observation of what I have seen as an average harvest and in the field sightings of bucks while hunting.”

Wildly unscientific and completely anecdotal but based on seeing the bucks that came into the butcher shop when I helped out part time, harvest photos shared on non- influencer social media and observed harvests from my time in the field. I can’t prove anything. But, I would ask anyone on this forum who has hunted MT for a couple decades if anything in their experience and observations would make them believe that the average age of buck harvest is 4.5 years old?

Maybe the data is solid and is an accurate representation of average. Maybe it’s a biased representation of small sample size or in what circumstances the data was collected.

At any rate, I’m having trouble believing it as a face value statement. Like I said, I haven’t listened to the podcast or seen the raw data so maybe my mind will have to be changed when I take the time to listen and examine it. I’m just giving my hot take based on what I’m reading here.

 

[Forkyfinder]

But, I would ask anyone on this forum who has hunted MT for a couple decades if anything in their experience and observations would make them believe that the average age of buck harvest is 4.5 years old?

Median. Not average.

@sclancy27 curious of your thoughts as the numbers guy behind the proposal.

The part relevant to that starts at 1:07.

 

[DFS]

Yes. "Median" means 50 percent are older/younger as its the "true" middle of the data. Depending on what youre looking at - its a better statistical measure than average. I think the antler questions again were survey answers and/or based on observations. It had to have come from somewhere - but the numbers will be hard to refute if thats the data they have to go on.

All the more reason mandatory reporting is necessary.

I don’t have the data but I think they aged 450ish bucks out of the maybe 52000ish bucks that were harvested during that time period, and it was voluntary.

 

[INMT]

Yes. "Median" means 50 percent are older/younger as its the "true" middle of the data. Depending on what youre looking at - its a better statistical measure than average. I think the antler questions again were survey answers and/or based on observations. It had to have come from somewhere - but the numbers will be hard to refute if thats the data they have to go on.

All the more reason mandatory reporting is necessary.

I was hesitant to use e-tags because I liked the tradition of notching and hanging my tags on the freezer.

I use and like them now and would happily submit harvest data.

 

[INMT]

Wildly unscientific and completely anecdotal but based on seeing the bucks that came into the butcher shop when I helped out part time, harvest photos shared on non- influencer social media and observed harvests from my time in the field. I can’t prove anything. But, I would ask anyone on this forum who has hunted MT for a couple decades if anything in their experience and observations would make them believe that the average age of buck harvest is 4.5 years old?

Maybe the data is solid and is an accurate representation of average. Maybe it’s a biased representation of small sample size or in what circumstances the data was collected.

At any rate, I’m having trouble believing it as a face value statement. Like I said, I haven’t listened to the podcast or seen the raw data so maybe my mind will have to be changed when I take the time to listen and examine it. I’m just giving my hot take based on what I’m reading here.

Thanks. Again I wasn’t trying to second guess you, I respect your experience. Was just curious about your process.

 

[cgasner1]

To rephrase what I was asking, how is he judging age in the field? It seemed like he was saying that you can’t age by counting points. Which I agree with.

A forky or a 2x3 can be far older than a 4x4 etc.

Just curious again not arguing.

I doubt the teeth are being sent off my uneducated guess would be they are being “aged” at the check stations by looking at teeth

 

[INMT]

I doubt the teeth are being sent off my uneducated guess would be they are being “aged” at the check stations by looking at teeth

I think you’re right.

 

[Gerald Martin]

To rephrase what I was asking, how is he judging age in the field? It seemed like he was saying that you can’t age by counting points. Which I agree with.

A forky or a 2x3 can be far older than a 4x4 etc.

Just curious again not arguing.

If there was $100 on the line to be paid to you for every correct answer with a $200 penalty for every incorrect answer would you be willing to classify the following pictures into “3 1/2 years or older or younger than 3 1/2”? . I know I would and I bet any MT hunter with more than a couple of years experience would get more than 95% of the age classification correct. What age are these forked horn and 2x3’s?

 

[Forkyfinder]

Whatever the feelings are - the data had better be on your side for any chance of big change.

Guess we'll just wait and see.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Thanks. Again I wasn’t trying to second guess you, I respect your experience. Was just curious about your process.

I wasn’t taking it as challenging my experience. My reaction and response to what I read that part of the podcast is a hot take reaction.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I don’t have the data but I think they aged 450ish bucks out of the maybe 52000ish bucks that were harvested during that time period, and it was voluntary.

So, if this is the case that the aging is voluntary, I can very well envision a scenario where hunters who believe they have older deer would want to have them aged out of curiosity to see how old their buck is. If that’s the scenario it could definitely bias the results.

Personally, I know that I am much more interested in learning the age of either a “trophy” animal or an old animal than on that seems to me to be young.

 

[INMT]

If there was $100 on the line to be paid to you for every correct answer with a $200 penalty for every incorrect answer would you be willing to classify the following pictures into “3 1/2 years or older or younger than 3 1/2”? . I know I would and I bet any MT hunter with more than a couple of years experience would get more than 95% of the age classification correct. What age are these forked horn and 2x3’s?
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Yes. Top 3 over bottoms under.

 

[DFS]

So, if this is the case that the aging is voluntary, I can very well envision a scenario where hunters who believe they have older deer would want to have them aged out of curiosity to see how old their buck is. If that’s the scenario it could definitely bias the results.

Personally, I know that I am much more interested in learning the age of either a “trophy” animal or an old animal than on that seems to me to be young.

Hunters that care get their deer tested for cwd, serious hunters want to know how old their buck is, serious hunters don’t gaf about how old the forky is that they just shot.

 

[rogerthat]

I think you’re right.

No they are lab aging them cementum annuli. I was surprised as well.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Yes. Top 3 over bottoms under.

What about the very last pic with the two bucks?