Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[rogerthat]

With respect, this is one where hunters have co-opted a biological term to suit their aesthetic wants. Biologically speaking, “mature” nearly always means sexually reproductive age, particularly when we’re talking about wildlife. Any animal without antlers is mature when it reaches sexual maturity. It is nonsensical to have a different standard just for males of antlered species.

Based on any other subjective metric whether it’s some magic number of years old or antler size, no one can really articulate what “mature” actually means because it depends on the person. Therein lies the problem. I don’t think it’s FWP that has introduced the confusion here.

Your probably right but they do introduce the confusion when they stand up in front of us in meetings and tell us there are lots of big mature bucks on public land(we just need to tighten our boots and stop being lazy), belittle our observations and experience of 30 plus years in the area, and embark upon a social media “education” campaign to educate us dumb f!$ks because we are just too dumb to understand that nothing has changed. The populations are outstanding and the herd is in great shape. They deserve every bit of scorn they get in region 7.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Your probably right but they do introduce the confusion when they stand up in front of us in meetings and tell us there are lots of big mature bucks on public land(we just need to tighten our boots and stop being lazy), belittle our observations and experience of 30 plus years in the area, and embark upon a social media “education” campaign to educate us dumb f!$ks because we are just too dumb to understand that nothing has changed. The populations are outstanding and the herd is in great shape. They deserve every bit of scorn they get in region 7.

Doesn’t sound like they are introducing confusion, just agitation.

 

[rogerthat]

Doesn’t sound like they are introducing confusion, just agitation.

Confusion is the big mature mule deer bucks part. Are these big sexually mature bucks or big mature bucks? I can only assume sexually mature after I hike around for weeks with my super tight boots to look at the 2 point warrior trolls breeding does.

 

[Irrelevant]

sexually mature mule deer buck

Mature mule deer buck

 

[R.K.]

sexually mature mule deer buck
View attachment 299813
Mature mule deer buck
View attachment 299815

The difference is like comparing a 18 year old to a 50 year old. If the oldest person you found in a population was 25, you’d immediately notice something was very wrong. That’s what’s going on with Montana- the age structure is in a very bad way, indicating a very unhealthy and over-exploited deer population.

Cut doe tags. Grow the herd. Produce more bucks every year than can be killed by people. Give these bucks a chance to live longer, for God’s sake.

 

[bigsky2]

The difference is like comparing a 18 year old to a 50 year old. If the oldest person you found in a population was 25, you’d immediately notice something was very wrong. That’s what’s going on with Montana- the age structure is in a very bad way, indicating a very unhealthy and over-exploited deer population.

Cut doe tags. Grow the herd. Produce more bucks every year than can be killed by people. Give these bucks a chance to live longer, for God’s sake.

I've said it before.....sure we could sustain the human population by teenage boys impregnating 30-40 year old women, it doesn't make it right though! That's basically how our mule deer herd is sustaining itself.

 

[rogerthat]

I've said it before.....sure we could sustain the human population by teenage boys impregnating 30-40 year old women, it doesn't make it right though! That's basically how our mule deer herd is sustaining itself.

The problem for that argument is that strictly biologically speaking we could still sustain the human race that way. There is no biological requirement for older age class in the herd. But they should just be honest with us. They are not. Anyway the buck thing is beside the point and that ship sailed decades ago. They got long term population trend problems too.

 

[Unlucky]

Honestly what are the reasons fwp does not make some drastic changes to mule deer management. I don't understand why

 

[kwyeewyk]

To be fair, the request is for people to provide their opinion on what they consider mature and how many they'd like to see on the landscape and then he will do some math for R7, seems like an interesting topic regardless of what they're calling sexually mature for population counts. I understand there is little trust in the overall system but an offer to do the math in front of everyone seems worth at least giving them some input so they have some good opinions to analyze.

 

[Irrelevant]

4.5 yr is my threshold for mature.

 

[Deleted member 52937]

4.5 yr is my threshold for mature.

You should go on the FB page and comment. Pretty much in-line with everyone else's response. I'm surprised by the responses, usually you get a bunch of guys on there saying, "meat in the freezer, brown its down, can't eat the horns, opportunity, chance at a buck on public, ect."

I keep emailing some of the biologists my 2 cents. They can come back with all their polished responses and throw the data at me till their blue in the face, I'll keep replying with my blue collar, knuckle dragger responses and see where we get. Somethings changing out there and it's not for the better, if they can't admit it, I'll continue to try and persuade them. You can't argue with someone when they have boots on the ground experience with many miles year after year in the same drainages. There's enough group think in the world, the biologists need to be impartial and mange in the best interest of the species, period. We as sportsman need to do the same, unapologetically. The fact that most of the biologist responses are pretty much the same makes me think there is some sort of coordinated effort to control what narrative is conveyed to the general public.

 

[DFS]

The lack of older age class bucks is nothing new. The lack of deer is concerning though. The fact that private land only doe tags was a non starter for region 7 staff is troubling. Region 7 having no proposals for deer in the season setting was a slap in the face of Montana sportsman. I would agree something is happening on the landscape and it’s not good.

 

[8andcounting]

You should go on the FB page and comment. Pretty much in-line with everyone else's response. I'm surprised by the responses, usually you get a bunch of guys on there saying, "meat in the freezer, brown its down, can't eat the horns, opportunity, chance at a buck on public, ect."

I keep emailing some of the biologists my 2 cents. They can come back with all their polished responses and throw the data at me till their blue in the face, I'll keep replying with my blue collar, knuckle dragger responses and see where we get. Somethings changing out there and it's not for the better, if they can't admit it, I'll continue to try and persuade them. You can't argue with someone when they have boots on the ground experience with many miles year after year in the same drainages. There's enough group think in the world, the biologists need to be impartial and mange in the best interest of the species, period. We as sportsman need to do the same, unapologetically. The fact that most of the biologist responses are pretty much the same makes me think there is some sort of coordinated effort to control what narrative is conveyed to the general public.

It’s one thing to comment on social media about letting little ones grow and yada yada it’s another to actually back it up . I doubt the latter is happening

 

[rogerthat]

It’s one thing to comment on social media about letting little ones grow and yada yada it’s another to actually back it up . I doubt the latter is happening

I don’t think we can expect sportsman to implement the solution by selective harvest. I just don’t think it’s plausible for this to be an actionable solution. Hell we can’t agree on anything on hunttalk and most of us are like minded. It’s got to come from a department proposal. Lots of options out there but the department has to admit there is a problem first. Seems like that may be happening in other regions like region 4 but the bios in region 7 are asleep at the wheel mid air launching it off an approach into the Yellowstone river right now.

 

[brockel]

Honestly what are the reasons fwp does not make some drastic changes to mule deer management. I don't understand why

Because they don’t see a problem with how things are now.

 

[Elky Welky]

I wonder if all the big bucks running around in Helena city limits are part of the problem? (photo from a friend in Helena, not too far from FWP HQ).

 

[Deleted member 52937]

There are guides in an area I hunt that stopped advertising deer hunts around 2020 out of concern for the health of the herd. That should be pretty telling when they've spent decades hunting the area and could probably generate some revenue guiding a MD Freak to their first 140" 120" 4pt.

 

[Deleted member 16864]

Check out this monster! On the home place even! Think I’ll name him “tines”.

 

[rogerthat]

I wonder if all the big bucks running around in Helena city limits are part of the problem? (photo from a friend in Helena, not too far from FWP HQ).

View attachment 299842

Damn that is a sweet buck! When I lived there that was my favorite thing to do. Drive around town and look at the monster bucks.

 

[Elky Welky]

Damn that is a sweet buck! When I lived there that was my favorite thing to do. Drive around town and look at the monster bucks.

It would seem they are still there! Biggest muley buck I've ever seen was in Lockey Park over 15 years ago, right outside the governor's mansion. Drop tines on both sides.