Its a mad mad world!

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Nope | By King BachFacebook

Nope
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Perspective is a funny thing.

So is language & the march of time. We live in an era where we have weaponized & politicized every single thing, and we are demanded to be outraged over any perceived slight.

My niece is gay. She came out during her deployment in AFG, where she was a combat medic at a forward operating base. She patched up soldiers & Afghani kids who were collateral damage. If she wants me to call her Frank, Sally or Joe, she gets to decide and I get to honor her.

She had to hide that part of herself from my parents because she didn't know how they would react (they would have been fine, but still).

The finest conservation lobbyist in the Rockies is gay. This person puts up with immeasurable insults & slights by people who think it's ok to talk like that because they are people in power.

The women who used to participate more freely on this board are some the best wildlife biologists & advocates in the west. They deal with the issues of being talked over, told their work isn't good enough, then get their own work cited back to them, etc. They get asked to go get coffee or make copies.

I've had members in this board reach out expressing their discomfort over some of the pokes taken at the LGBTQ+ community and the same with women & people of color.

It's easy in a situation that's dominated by type A guys to revert back to Jr High or High School locker room behavior. It's funny if you're part of the crowd, and damned hurtful when you aren't.

Kindness is not weakness. Compassion is not capitulation. My sainted mother taught me that regardless of how other people behave, you act like you expect to be treated. You can't change how others act but you can control how you react.

I think if we're all honest with ourselves, we see that the puffed up chest syndrome is really an expression of self-doubt & self-loathing. Happy people don't tend to tear others down, just lift them up.

So act like you're momma is watching you, be nice, be polite & be respectful. It costs you nothing & it makes jackasses go crazy.
 
As a project manager of some pretty big construction projects I find this hilarious. I've spent plenty of time in the field and know how field employees feel about office employees and vice versa.

But honestly, where are all the attractive construction gals around me?!
 
noharleyyet said:
I've had and witnessed plenty of engineers, project managers, architects, and supers come to Jesus regarding field personnel whom were the only ones who could drag their arrogant azzes out of a fire they created.
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Depends who you work with i guess.

Ive become close friends with guys in the field that were 3rd party to my company. Id answer texts about my work, or construction errors, at almost any time of day - including hunting trips and sunday mornings and i took pride in that. Conflict always begats conflict - teamwork begats teamwork.

Seeing arrogant engineers get humbled is funny, especially as an engineer 🤷‍♂️.
 
The Hedgehog said:
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I call BS on both of these posts by Hedgehog. There is a line between discussion, humor and misogyny and too frequently in the last few months I have seen posts pushing that line. I am no wall flower, love a good laugh, and hate PC too, but at some point we have to address the fact that too many men feel “putting women in their place” is OK. Even if Hedghog didn’t have that intent, he might then be playing into the worst of others who take these types of “jokes” to the wrong place.

Reminds me of when Dave Chappell left comedy for a while. One of his reasons was that he began to find that “too many were laughing too hard for the wrong reasons”.

HT should be a place for women, girls, and any orientation if they have interest in the outdoors and and public lands - they shouldn’t have to wade through thinly veiled crap to be part of this place.

The worst 2% of men goad an ambivalent and persuadable 25% of men to continue to cling to an “only men count” worldview — it is time for the 25% to get a clue, the 73% of us to call it out, and for the 2% to move to a Incel thread on Reddit.

I certainly have fallen short of my own standards at times, but I don’t wear those moments as some testosterone badge of honor. I apologize, learn and try to do better. I am sure the “tough guys” on HT will blast me, but it means nothing. What means something is when a person who feels excluded sees that someone cares enough to say something. I have gotten too many “thanks for your support” DMs on HT over the years from women and others who feel mocked to feel good about how we collectively behave on HT. I encourage sons, fathers, brothers and husbands, to call out those who demean our moms, daughters, sisters and wives in so many little ways. And the same goes for those who have a different sexual orientation than our own - they too are some of our dearest relations whether we know it or not.

As for OP - is it entirely clear that if she had a hard hat on that you would have addressed her as you addressed the men? I guess we won’t know, but I have my doubts. Regardless, it is fairly clear that OP and the woman were both touchy on this subject — but I would guess she has had to deal with a lot more “being ignored in the workplace” than he has had being called out by a women - so I guess the tie breaker goes to her in my book.

I would have preferred that OP would have posted his story and ended with - so guys, while I meant no disrespect and I think she was a little over the top, let’s all be a little more attentive to the challenges of our mothers, daughters, sisters and wives in the workplace. Instead the post encourages a cascade of knuckle dragging support. We can do better.
 
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MtEngineer said:
Depends who you work with i guess.

Ive become close friends with guys in the field that were 3rd party to my company. Id answer texts about my work, or construction errors, at almost any time of day - including hunting trips and sunday mornings and i took pride in that. Conflict always begats conflict - teamwork begats teamwork.

Seeing arrogant engineers get humbled is funny, especially as an engineer 🤷‍♂️.
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Yep, that was my point...
 
I find it weird that someone would take the time to type out this version of a confrontation on a hunting forum.

I guess some thrive on drama.
 
Bambistew said:
I offended a person the other day using the term "manpower" when discussing estimated costs based on how many hours and people are required to do the work.

They asked me to not use the word, as it was offensive to them.

I try to be cognizant of peoples beliefs and personal opinions, but I was at a loss of words. According to Webster, there are over 3000 English words that contain "man" in them.
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No doubt updating a language after a thousand years of women being property not people is challenging and awkward. Try a little experiment. The next 10 time the need to use the word “manpower” comes up use “womenpower” in its place - and then after that swap the two randomly. I am not saying which is right, but at least you will get a feel for how women feel when having to use the words.
 
VikingsGuy said:
I would have preferred that OP would have posted his story and ended with - so guys, while I meant no disrespect and I think she was a little over the top, let’s all be a little more attentive to the challenges of our mothers, daughters, sisters and wives in the workplace. Instead the post encourages a cascade of knuckle dragging support. We can do better.
Click to expand...

makes me think about an occurrence last friday my wife and I had.

we had to run to the OBGYN for some concerns that have developed in our pregnancy. yes we're pregnant again.

saw an OB who is new to the practice, we've not seen her yet. her bedside manner was not good, that and we would try to ask questions and she would just talk over us when we tried to ask. we were having some rather serious concerns and ultimately she had to refer us to perinatologist for some more intensive evaluation. i was getting annoyed with this doctor, and my pregnant and highly emotionally drained and exhausted and sick feeling wife i could tell was getting angry. but nonetheless the OB was obviously wicked sharp, knew what she was talking about and ultimately did let us ask our questions.

this new OB was was black, with short purple hair. on the drive home my wife kept complaining about her bedside manner and how rude she felt she was during our rather fragile and emotional state of disarray which really had nothing to do with the color of her skin.

i finally stopped my wife and just said "she's a black, female MD in her 50's. i don't disgaree her bedside manner could've been way better considering what we've been through today, but can you even imagine how uphill her career has been? the shit she's probably had to put up with? and for how long?"

I'll give her a pass on her bedside manner. she was obviously a very sharp, intelligient, and caring OB, all things considered.
 
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TOGIE said:
makes me think about an occurrence last friday my wife and I had.

we had to run to the OBGYN for some concerns that have developed in our pregnancy. yes we're pregnant again.

saw an OB who is new to the practice, we've not seen her yet. her bedside manner was not good, that and we would try to ask questions and she would just talk over us when we tried to ask. we were having some rather serious concerns and ultimately she had to refer us to perinatologist for some more intensive evaluation. i was getting annoyed with this doctor, and my pregnant and highly emotionally drained and exhausted and sick feeling wife i could tell was getting angry. but nonetheless the OB was obviously wicked sharp, knew what she was talking about and ultimately did let us ask our questions.

this new OB was was black, with short purple hair. on the drive home my wife kept complaining about her bedside manner and how rude she felt she was during our rather fragile and emotional state of disarray which really had nothing to do with the color of her skin.

i finally stopped my wife and just said "she's a black, female MD in her 50's. i don't disgaree her bedside manner could've been way better considering what we've been through today, but can you even imagine how uphill her career has been? the shit she's probably had to put up with? and for how long?"

I'll give her a pass on her bedside manner. she was obviously a very sharp, intelligient, and caring OB, all things considered.
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I hope your wife slapped you for not taking her side, but then said im sorry honey your right I'm just emotional from the pregnancy and all.
 
TOGIE said:
makes me think about an occurrence last friday my wife and I had.

we had to run to the OBGYN for some concerns that have developed in our pregnancy. yes we're pregnant again.

saw an OB who is new to the practice, we've not seen her yet. her bedside manner was not good, that and we would try to ask questions and she would just talk over us when we tried to ask. we were having some rather serious concerns and ultimately she had to refer us to perinatologist for some more intensive evaluation. i was getting annoyed with this doctor, and my pregnant and highly emotionally drained and exhausted and sick feeling wife i could tell was getting angry. but nonetheless the OB was obviously wicked sharp, knew what she was talking about and ultimately did let us ask our questions.

this new OB was was black, with short purple hair. on the drive home my wife kept complaining about her bedside manner and how rude she felt she was during our rather fragile and emotional state of disarray which really had nothing to do with the color of her skin.

i finally stopped my wife and just said "she's a black, female MD in her 50's. i don't disgaree her bedside manner could've been way better considering what we've been through today, but can you even imagine how uphill her career has been? the shit she's probably had to put up with? and for how long?"

I'll give her a pass on her bedside manner. she was obviously a very sharp, intelligient, and caring OB, all things considered.
Click to expand...
Decency applies all around - regardless of identity. I understand folks had different journeys, struggles, and challenges along the way - thats also true of people that are assumed privelage who didnt have it. Its not okay to assume and typically always best policy to give the benefit of the doubt.

The doctor is a frustating place for a concerned husband/father - i suppose your frustration showed and she dealt with it how she saw fit. I had a a few similar instances play out. Mostly because i let my impatience and concern over take the need to be truly respectful. This could have played out for reasons that are observable and unobservable to her identity.

For example it could have been someone who is disappointed/frustated/jealous that they couldnt have ever got pregnant and here you are being upset about something small (in their mind). No idea of your specifics - but i hope you get my idea.

I guess what im trying to say is that we should all try to be more patient and understanding - to everyone regardless of background.

Feel like the peace not justice thing is way applicable - and in my experience - justice follows peace exclusively.

I dont at all disagree with your premise of providing a person of color the benefit of the doubt. Just think we should all generally try to apply that more, generally all the time - including and especially me.
 
MtEngineer said:
Decency applies all around - regardless of identity. I understand folks had different journeys, struggles, and challenges along the way - thats also true of people that are assumed privelage who didnt have it. Its not okay to assume and typically always best policy to give the benefit of the doubt.

The doctor is a frustating place for a concerned husband/father - i suppose your frustration showed and she dealt with it how she saw fit. I had a a few similar instances play out. Mostly because i let my impatience and concern over take the need to be truly respectful. This could have played out for reasons that are observable and unobservable to her identity.

For example it could have been someone who is disappointed/frustated/jealous that they couldnt have ever got pregnant and here you are being upset about something small (in their mind). No idea of your specifics - but i hope you get my idea.

I guess what im trying to say is that we should all try to be more patient and understanding - to everyone regardless of background.

Feel like the peace not justice thing is way applicable - and in my experience - justice follows peace exclusively.

I dont at all disagree with your premise of providing a person of color the benefit of the doubt. Just think we should all generally try to apply that more, generally all the time - including and especially me.
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A bit to your point, interesting how different folks read similar event through their own lens. When I read TOGIE’s story my mind didn’t wander to the race angle and its complexities, I was thinking - I have had a lot of male doctors with crap bedside manner but if they were competent I didn’t care — but from a women do I take the same path. That many of us would be more upset by a poor bedside manner by a women than a man, as we would have had the gender based assumption a women doctor would be more naturally “soft” in style.

These are tricky, near impossible, scenarios to “solve for”, but as @Ben Lamb pointed out - kindness and grace go a long way to getting us there. And I believe to safe to say, rallying the sympathies of the “bully old boys choir” is not helpful.
 
MtEngineer said:
Decency applies all around - regardless of identity. I understand folks had different journeys, struggles, and challenges along the way - thats also true of people that are assumed privelage who didnt have it. Its not okay to assume and typically always best policy to give the benefit of the doubt.

The doctor is a frustating place for a concerned husband/father - i suppose your frustration showed and she dealt with it how she saw fit. I had a a few similar instances play out. Mostly because i let my impatience and concern over take the need to be truly respectful. This could have played out for reasons that are observable and unobservable to her identity.

For example it could have been someone who is disappointed/frustated/jealous that they couldnt have ever got pregnant and here you are being upset about something small (in their mind). No idea of your specifics - but i hope you get my idea.

I guess what im trying to say is that we should all try to be more patient and understanding - to everyone regardless of background.

Feel like the peace not justice thing is way applicable - and in my experience - justice follows peace exclusively.

I dont at all disagree with your premise of providing a person of color the benefit of the doubt. Just think we should all generally try to apply that more, generally all the time - including and especially me.
Click to expand...

should really give everyone everywhere the benefit of the doubt for the most part. you never know what people are dealing with and how it's impacting the way they respond to people and situations. more times that not, they're dealing with something, or have dealt with somethign their whole life, worse than you.

i feel like you think i'm saying you should give people a pass to behave however they want just for being a woman, or black, or a black woman. that's not what i'm saying and i think you know that. but you still gotta try your best to put yourself in others shoes and take a moment to wonder, perhaps, why their behavior has been molded by their experiences.

i was just saying to my wife why it's honestly probably pretty understandable that a black female MD who's been in the game for 20-25 years is probably is a little less soft around the edges and prone to talking over people and maintaining "won't stand down" sort of posture most the time.

forget the fact that she's black and just say "female MD" and it applies as well.

and it doesn't just apply to being a doctor. but i do imagine there are some pretty damn unique difficult challenges to that field when you're a female, especially a female of color, and that it'll harden some over time.
 
TOGIE said:
should really give everyone everywhere the benefit of the doubt for the most part. you never know what people are dealing with and how it's impacting the way they respond to people and situations. more times that not, they're dealing with something, or have dealt with somethign their whole life, worse than you.

i feel like you think i'm saying you should give people a pass to behave however they want just for being a woman, or black, or a black woman. that's not what i'm saying and i think you know that. but you still gotta try your best to put yourself in others shoes and take a moment to wonder, perhaps, why their behavior has been molded by their experiences.

i was just saying to my wife why it's honestly probably pretty understandable that a black female MD who's been in the game for 20-25 years is probably is a little less soft around the edges and prone to talking over people and maintaining "won't stand down" sort of posture most the time.

forget the fact that she's black and just say "female MD" and it applies as well.

and it doesn't just apply to being a doctor. but i do imagine there are some pretty damn unique difficult challenges to that field when you're a female, especially a female of color, and that it'll harden some over time.
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For sure - make no mistake - i am just saying giving people the benefit of the doubt applies regardless because theres a lot to a person independent of what is observable.

Being a poor white male from a single parent home with drug use that aspired to be a doctor - would likely also harden you. I don't think there is universal privelage that should ever be assumed - and yes it is true that minorities struggle in ways we cant comprehend. I wont dispite that - and i acknowledge it. Only a bigot wouldnt. The point i am trying to make - The safe assumption is that the people around you are all dealing with something rough or have in their life/day you simply wont ever understand and its best not to take things personally. Applies to everyone from the garbageman, grocery clerk, waitress to the high rolling stock trader of all backgrounds.

Our doctor was pissed off one morning - he eventually explained he was retiring because of the sheer amount of drug use he sees in pregnant women. Seeing fetuses die from a lack of empathy is a burden i wouldnt want to bear - and i tried to be more/always understanding with folks in medicine because of his sadness/compassion.

Definetly agree about putting yourself in others shoes, including of other races/gender. I am simply saying the same princple applies independent of race/gender.
 
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