Invasive Mtn Goats in GTNP have to go

[BigHornRam]

The people that took part in these hunts knew what they were about. If the hunts were not your cup of tea buzz that's fine. Ultimately they took place and I'm glad they did. Beats what's going to happen to the remain goats starting Monday.

 

[geetar]

Saw some pictures floating around of some real trophy class goats from those hunts...unbelievable what happens on these type of hunts.

I’m sure not every one hunted ethically and practiced any form of restraint when it came to what goats they shot but if you wanna here a more positive outcome of one of these hunts listen to Episode 378 of the Rich Outdoors Podcast starting around minute 31. Cody and Stephen Rosso go over the story of Stephen’s archery goat on one of these depredation hunts near the Tetons. Stephen killed a really nice billy goat on a solo hunt that I believe made the record book.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Yes he earned a nice billy, but no different than he could have if drawn on previous years for the unit that included that area (other than it opened on August 1st). There weren't/aren't but a handful of mature billies available for harvest in that whole herd. He did it how a pro would do it, but I'm certain that wasn't the norm. It's just a weird situation all around.

 

[geetar]

@SnowyMountaineer Unfortunately there is no good option it seems. It’s either they are slaughtered by hunters or slaughtered by the game and fish. I don’t like either option but I prefer what they did over helicopter gunning.

 

[BuzzH]

I’m sure not every one hunted ethically and practiced any form of restraint when it came to what goats they shot but if you wanna here a more positive outcome of one of these hunts listen to Episode 378 of the Rich Outdoors Podcast starting around minute 31. Cody and Stephen Rosso go over the story of Stephen’s archery goat on one of these depredation hunts near the Tetons. Stephen killed a really nice billy goat on a solo hunt that I believe made the record book.

That's fine, I know a couple decent goats were shot, but lots more were not. If you want me to I can PM you some pictures of some of the goats killed. They're bad enough, I don't think it would be proper to post them on a public forum, even though I'm tempted to as it would illustrate my concerns with these type of "hunts".

One of the goats I have pictures of, doesn't even have horns yet and if it weighs 50 lbs undressed, I'd be shocked.

 

[geetar]

That's fine, I know a couple decent goats were shot, but lots more were not. If you want me to I can PM you some pictures of some of the goats killed. They're bad enough, I don't think it would be proper to post them on a public forum, even though I'm tempted to as it would illustrate my concerns with these type of "hunts".

One of the goats I have pictures of, doesn't even have horns yet and if it weighs 50 lbs undressed, I'd be shocked.

Oh I’m definitely not arguing with you that it likely was a disaster in many ways. Just offering that I did hear of one person making the most of the opportunity. I’m sure many others went nuts on any goat they saw. My point was more that I was actually glad to hear of one ethical hunter taking an opportunity like this and sticking to his normal style of hunting and not just shooting whatever he could fling bullets or arrows at. I would have much preferred that the Rocky Mountain Goat Alliance and the Wyoming game and fish department had been able to work together to move them to another location like they did with the goats in Olympia this summer. Slaughtering a whole herd in any fashion did not please me.

 

[MTGomer]

I suppose if there is a positive to this hunt not happening, it’s that there won’t be guys from Utah, going full Doyle groupie, wearing flat bills posed behind a blood covered 40 pound kid that rocketed off a cliff, followed by 7 MountainHops supplement hashtags plastered all over the Insta for the non and anti hunters to see.
Sounds like Buzz has seen a few of something similiar.

 

[EYJONAS!]

I suppose if there is a positive to this hunt not happening, it’s that there won’t be guys from Utah, going full Doyle groupie, wearing flat bills posed behind a blood covered 40 pound kid that rocketed off a cliff, followed by 7 MountainHops supplement hashtags plastered all over the Insta for the non and anti hunters to see.
Sounds like Buzz has seen a few of something similiar.

You makin fun of me .....bruh?

 

[brendog84cj8]

I wouldn't complain if they found a way to capture these goats and work out some sort of cross state collaboration with Montana to relocate them up here to Montana where we have districts that are struggling with goat population decline.

 

[BigHornRam]

Transplanting goats isn't the easiest thing to do and does cost money. Has the goat alliance looked into this?

Not sure how this transplant worked out in the long run. Area had predator issues from what I recall of the effort.

Mountain goats released into Scapegoat

The ungulate version of an X-files-like abduction went off almost without a hitch last weekend. A trio of New Zealanders in a helicopter swooped out of the sky and plucked

helenair.com

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Predators? In the Scapegoat Wilderness? Nahhh...

 

[EYJONAS!]

Transplanting goats isn't the easiest thing to do and does cost money. Has the goat alliance looked into this?

Not sure how this transplant worked out in the long run. Area had predator issues from what I recall of the effort.

Mountain goats released into Scapegoat

The ungulate version of an X-files-like abduction went off almost without a hitch last weekend. A trio of New Zealanders in a helicopter swooped out of the sky and plucked

helenair.com

I talked with Pete about this yesterday. Goats just don't get the love like sheep do. Must not generate enough state revenue to really give a shit.

Maybe @theat could weigh in a little more on this?

 

[geetar]

I talked with Pete yesterday about this yesterday. Goats just don't get the love like sheep do. Must not generate enough state revenue to really give a shit.

Maybe @theat could weigh in a little more on this?

That’s a shame because they are an incredibly impressive animal that deserves respect.

 

[BigHornRam]

That’s a shame because they are an incredibly impressive animal that deserves respect.

Dr Garrott at MSU is doing a lot of mountain goat research lately. They are tough animals to study due to where they live. Look at this list of biologist and you might recognize some names.

A Survey of Bacterial Respiratory Pathogens in Native and Introduced Mountain Goats (Oreamnos americanus) | Journal of Wildlife Diseases

www.jwildlifedis.org

Having trouble posting above link, here's some more mountain goat research by Garrott to look at.

Sheep & Mountain Goat Research - Robert Garrott, Ph.D. | Montana State University

www.montana.edu

 

[geetar]

Dr Garrott at MSU is doing a lot of mountain goat research lately. They are tough animals to study due to where they live. Look at this list of biologist and you might recognize some names.

A Survey of Bacterial Respiratory Pathogens in Native and Introduced Mountain Goats (Oreamnos americanus) | Journal of Wildlife Diseases

www.jwildlifedis.org

Having trouble posting above link, here's some more mountain goat research by Garrott to look at.

Sheep & Mountain Goat Research - Robert Garrott, Ph.D. | Montana State University

www.montana.edu

Thanks for sharing. I’m impressed with some of the stuff MSU does. Definitely some heavyweights on that list. Especially Mr. Stewart. I’ve got tons of respect for his long career in biology.

 

[BigHornRam]

Thanks for sharing. I’m impressed with some of the stuff MSU does. Definitely some heavyweights on that list. Especially Mr. Stewart. I’ve got tons of respect for his long career in biology.

Well mountain goats can always use more passionate advocates, and you sound like you might be one.

 

[geetar]

Well mountain goats can always use more passionate advocates, and you sound like you might be one.

I’d love to do more for them. I am a member of the goat alliance and I’d love to get more involved with them.

 

[theat]

I talked with Pete about this yesterday. Goats just don't get the love like sheep do. Must not generate enough state revenue to really give a shit.

Maybe @theat could weigh in a little more on this?

Kind of funny for me seeing this thread today as I spend several hours last night going through the video I have taken during the goat captures I was involved with, for a goat conservation/hunt video another member on here is putting together.

Very true that goats don't get near the attention or funding that sheep do. This isn't due to disinterest by the biologists. In fact, the most excited I have ever seen biologists in several states is while we were doing mountain goat work. Granted, a good bit of that was due to the fact that most of them had never had that opportunity before. I was also there when a friend of mine checked in his goat in Bozeman last fall and got to have a really good conversation with the biologist there that is most involved with region 3 goat management. She was very excited to get to see that billy and hear all about our hunt. She also works with Pete at the Goat Alliance to organize goat surveys and other issues involving goats. She was thrilled with the results from the Bridger Mountain survey done this past summer and is hoping to increase the number of tags in that unit.

The main issue with goat management is funding. There are so few tags for species like sheep, moose, goats that very little money from tag sales is available for active management. In many states, the majority of the species specific research funding comes from a combination of auction/raffle governor tags and grants often done through university biology programs. In fact, almost all of the capture and research projects in western states and for all species are done in conjunction with institutions of higher learning. Many, if not most state fish and game agencies get very little or no funding from state taxes and depend entirely on tag sales, grants, and PR funds from the feds. With limited funding, they are forced to focus on the primary species that the majority of hunters are pursuing like deer and elk. Auction sheep tags sell for many many times more than goat tags, thus much more $$ is available for sheep research. I know that the Montana goat governors tag sold for significantly more last year than in the past and the majority of that money has to go towards goat management.

As many of you know the goat population in the Crazy Mountains was getting to the point where they were having a negative impact on the available winter range. There was concern that with over grazed winter range, a particularly harsh winter could cause a mass die off event. In response to that as well as complaints from several landowners that controlled access to large parts of the range, FWP began issuing nanny tags for the unit. There was also consideration of a transplant to supplement struggling herds in the western part of the state or establishing a new population in suitable goat habitat. In February of 2016 we caught 20 goats up there to determine if and or what diseases that population carried. Unfortunately, some of the goats were infected with a couple of diseases that so far have not significantly impacted that population. With those results, FWP was unwilling to transplant potentially infected goats to supplement struggling populations. For unknown reasons many native goat populations are declining rapidly and possibly introducing a new pathogen to struggling or stressed animals could hurt them much more than adding a handful of new goats to the population. As far as transplanting them to currently unused suitable goat habitat, it is not as easy as you would think. Now that more is know about the negative impact goats can have to sheep via disease as well as competition for limited winter range, biologist won't put goats where sheep currently live or even where they may transplant sheep to in the future. At least here in Montana, introducing sheep and goats to new areas is a political hot potato. The ranching community has a huge influence over FWP and our legislature. FWP has looked at starting new sheep and goat populations in several areas, but in every case there is at least one (often many) local rancher that do not want it to happen. Usually it is the grazing lease holders of the public land where the sheep and goats would be primarily residing.

Mountain Goats are incredible animals and I hate to see where things are heading for them here in the lower 48. I am really hoping that the biologists like Dr. Garrott and his people at MSU can come up with a viable solution to at least some of the disease issues that these iconic species are facing.

I have posted some of these pics on here in the past, but I'm sure some of you haven't seen them and who doesn't like looking at pics of goats!!

 

[EYJONAS!]

I talked with Pete yesterday about this yesterday. Goats just don't get the love like sheep do. Must not generate enough state revenue to really give a shit.

Maybe @theat could weigh in a little more on this?

Kind of funny for me seeing this thread today as I spend several hours last night going through the video I have taken during the goat captures I was involved with, for a goat conservation/hunt video another member on here is putting together.

Very true that goats don't get near the attention or funding that sheep do. This isn't due to disinterest by the biologists. In fact, the most excited I have ever seen biologists in several states is while we were doing mountain goat work. Granted, a good bit of that was due to the fact that most of them had never had that opportunity before. I was also there when a friend of mine checked in his goat in Bozeman last fall and got to have a really good conversation with the biologist there that is most involved with region 3 goat management. She was very excited to get to see that billy and hear all about our hunt. She also works with Pete at the Goat Alliance to organize goat surveys and other issues involving goats. She was thrilled with the results from the Bridger Mountain survey done this past summer and is hoping to increase the number of tags in that unit.

The main issue with goat management is funding. There are so few tags for species like sheep, moose, goats that very little money from tag sales is available for active management. In many states, the majority of the species specific research funding comes from a combination of auction/raffle governor tags and grants often done through university biology programs. In fact, almost all of the capture and research projects in western states and for all species are done in conjunction with institutions of higher learning. Many, if not most state fish and game agencies get very little or no funding from state taxes and depend entirely on tag sales, grants, and PR funds from the feds. With limited funding, they are forced to focus on the primary species that the majority of hunters are pursuing like deer and elk. Auction sheep tags sell for many many times more than goat tags, thus much more $$ is available for sheep research. I know that the Montana goat governors tag sold for significantly more last year than in the past and the majority of that money has to go towards goat management.

As many of you know the goat population in the Crazy Mountains was getting to the point where they were having a negative impact on the available winter range. There was concern that with over grazed winter range, a particularly harsh winter could cause a mass die off event. In response to that as well as complaints from several landowners that controlled access to large parts of the range, FWP began issuing nanny tags for the unit. There was also consideration of a transplant to supplement struggling herds in the western part of the state or establishing a new population in suitable goat habitat. In February of 2016 we caught 20 goats up there to determine if and or what diseases that population carried. Unfortunately, some of the goats were infected with a couple of diseases that so far have not significantly impacted that population. With those results, FWP was unwilling to transplant potentially infected goats to supplement struggling populations. For unknown reasons many native goat populations are declining rapidly and possibly introducing a new pathogen to struggling or stressed animals could hurt them much more than adding a handful of new goats to the population. As far as transplanting them to currently unused suitable goat habitat, it is not as easy as you would think. Now that more is know about the negative impact goats can have to sheep via disease as well as competition for limited winter range, biologist won't put goats where sheep currently live or even where they may transplant sheep to in the future. At least here in Montana, introducing sheep and goats to new areas is a political hot potato. The ranching community has a huge influence over FWP and our legislature. FWP has looked at starting new sheep and goat populations in several areas, but in every case there is at least one (often many) local rancher that do not want it to happen. Usually it is the grazing lease holders of the public land where the sheep and goats would be primarily residing.

Mountain Goats are incredible animals and I hate to see where things are heading for them here in the lower 48. I am really hoping that the biologists like Dr. Garrott and his people at MSU can come up with a viable solution to at least some of the disease issues that these iconic species are facing.

I have posted some of these pics on here in the past, but I'm sure some of you haven't seen them and who doesn't like looking at pics of goats!!

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I knew you'd have the goods. Thanks for sharing

 

[Jape]

@theat it sounds like lack of suitable habitat is the primary issue? Am I understanding that right? I’ve read some accounts of early trappers, primarily in the GTNP area that would wake up and see thousands of sheep and buffalo. Other accounts talk about trappers rolling boulders to kill them because of how plentiful they were. It seems that unless some stakeholders are willing to sacrifice the land necessary to establish viable populations the issue in this post will continue to be repeated.