How to get the Lower Snake Dams Breached...

[Michaelr]

As you can see the water situation is desprate around here. I have never seen it this dry

It doesn't bode well for big game this winter.

I would agree with ten about refrencing your sources..
How many times have you cried about that very thing ithaca?

 

[JoseCuervo]

Michael,

What sources are you wanting??? I referenced the original news release, and since then, I have cited no new information, just commented on the strategy and the likely outcomes. It is Ten Beers that keeps asking questions about the river flows and reservoir levels, and wants somebody to post the data from him. Neither Ithica nor I have made any comments requiring sources.

I am not sure when the State of Idaho quit funding the Public School systems in Idaho at an adequate level, but I think they must have stopped funding the schools up in Northern Idaho much sooner, as Ten is unable to read these two articles on breaching and understand them.

I am just glad that the legislature was able to keep adequate funding to the Public Schools I attended in Idaho.

I don't think Ten is able to read these articles, and other articles on the subject, and understand the EXCESS water does not exsist! Every drop of water in Southern Idaho is claimed by 3 or 4 parties, minimum. There are Judges whose entire career is spent on the adjudication of Snake River water rights. There are multiple Irrigation districts claiming the water, Power Companies, individual farmers, fish hatcheries, cities, and the fish and game of Idaho with claims.

These articles on the new strategy of pitting the upstream water users vs. the downsteam grain bargers in the effort to remove the four dams on the Lower Snake River even acknowledge as much.

But, the agencies regulating the river flow MUST abide by the law, and provide water to the endangered Salmon of the Lower Snake. And until the dams are breached, the Salmon will remain on the Endangered Species List.

TenBeers can clamor all he wants for stream flow and reservoir levels, and he can go look them up. It just doesn't matter, there isn't 427,000 excess. The only way to provide the water would be to dry up land in Southern/Eastern Idaho, or breach the dams, so you have free flowing rivers.

And if you want streamflows, here you go...

Now, Ten Beers has the complete picture of Water in the Upper Snake, thanks to Michael and I, but I doubt he can find 427,000 excess acre feet of water.

C'mon Ten, you have the data, now what are you going to do with it?

 

[Michaelr]

sure is a difference in water levels between east and west Idaho.

Must be subsidizing all you westside welfare fishermen

 

[Ten Bears]

GRINNER, you made my point quite well:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I doubt he can find 427,000 excess acre feet of water. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Rivers that are running dry or near dry now will only run dry earlier in the year as free flowing rivers.

Do I think the the Columbia, Salmon, or Snake rivers will ever go totally dry? NO.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Ten,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> GRINNER, you made my point quite well:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You made NO point. If I made your point for you, it was because you were never going to get around to making a point!!!

The original press release alludes to the fact there is not enough upstream water. The rebuttal by the Industry groups says the same thing.

I said there was no excess water. Everybody in the flippin' southern 1/2 of the state knows there isn't any excess water, let alone 427,000 feet of water. The only thing you made as a point is that you are unable to look up data (you relied on Michael and I), and you did no analysis.

The whole point of this suit is to play the Upstream guys against the barge traffic on the Lower Snake. Are you able to comprehend that? And a Judge is going to have to decide if he wants to dry up 425,000 acres of Potatoe Ground in Southern Idaho, or breach the dams and allow the rivers to return to a free flowing state. And the Salmon can live quite well in free flowing rivers, even when they are low due to drought conditions. As you mentioned, those rivers will NEVER go dry, so we might as well get them back to free flowing, and save our Economy in Southern Idaho.

 

[Ten Bears]

I asked you to show your references. I think the fact that somebody would question your "authority" bothers you to no end.

My point was that is not the water available for flows and farming. What makes you think that with free flowing rivers,that during drought years the water will be "survivable" both in temperature and O2 for salmon?

BTW, I will question you. You can call me ignorant all you want if that makes you feel powerful, but it doesn't make you intellectual.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Ten,

Could you please let me know what references you want me to post? Please let me know which "fact" you are wishing I would reference.

This will be entertaining....

Ten, have you been able to digest this suit, and understand the strategy, and the brilliance of the approach by the Pro-fishing groups?

And Ten, a direct question or two. Why do YOU not want to see the dams breached? How will it AFFECT you if the dams were breached?

 

[Ten Bears]

My point was that there is not the needed water available for flows and farming. What makes you think that with free flowing rivers,that during drought years the water will be "survivable" both in temperature and O2 for salmon?

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 09-11-2003 14:05: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hey Ten,

You might have missed it, so I will type the questions for you again, 'cept this time I will type s l o w e r f o r y o u t o r e a d .....

And Ten, a direct question or two. Why do YOU not want to see the dams breached? How will it AFFECT you if the dams were breached?

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten has no idea how dam breaching will affect him.

He's just having the typical uneducated redneck knee jerk reaction to anything he doesn't understand.

 

[Ten Bears]

IT, have you grown so feeble that you can no longer address a man face to face?

GRINNER, lets look at the costs to me; higher grain prices - the cost of railheading or trucking grain will increase significantly without the competition of barge transport = higher costs of living for grain based food supplies, increased dependancy upon unsafe/unclean nuclear power or propane(with diesel back up) and/or coal burning power generators, displaced recreational demand for "lake space" - with decreased reservoirs on the rivers, will come the increased deamnd for on lakes (all them big boats gotta go some where).

Let's look at what you gain, more salmon to fill your glutany, and some new rapids to ride. You must live well in your narrow minded pseudorancher lifestyle.

First I will ask you this question a third time, and then I will ask you t o r e a d i t s l o w l y. What makes you think that with free flowing rivers,that during drought years the water will be "survivable" both in temperature and O2 for salmon?


<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 09-12-2003 10:38: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>

 

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Let's look at what you gain, more salmon to fill your glutany, and some new rapids to ride. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Surely you don't think that more salmon and extra rapids are the only benefits that would come from this?

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, I'll answer that one for you!

"First I will ask you this question a third time, and then I will ask you t o r e a d i t s l o w l y. What makes you think that with free flowing rivers,that during drought years the water will be "survivable" both in temperature and O2 for salmon?
" The fact that they managed to survive just fine before the dams were built is what makes me think they'd be able to survive after the dams are breached.

Do you think there weren't any droughts in the last ten thousand years?

 

[JoseCuervo]

Ten,

Before we can answer your concerns as to how you will be impacted, I need a bit more information from you.

Per year, how much Soft White Wheat do you consume/purchase? (please reply in Bushels)


Per year, how much Hard Red Winter Wheat do you consume/purchase? (please reply in Bushels)

When you state "cost of railheading or trucking grain will increase significantly", can you explain to me how much you would consider to be " significantly".

How will you be affected by "increased dependancy upon unsafe/unclean nuclear power or propane(with diesel back up) and/or coal burning power generators". (Please reply in KWH per year),

How many times per year, on average, do you boat on the reservoirs behind he 4 Lower Snake Dams?

Do you believe it is the government's job to interfere with Free Market activities by subsidizing High Cost service providers?

Ten, thanks in advance for answering these questions.

 

[Ten Bears]

GRINNER, please feel free to post your own consumptions as an example for the rest of us.
I would say that I consume about 2 bushels of wheat a year in bread alone. If you will consider the constant of approx. 90 loaves of bread per bushel of wheat. If you disagree with that figure, please provide a corrected constant.
I would consider "significantly" to be the rate of increase charged by a carrier which has recently lost the major player in the market. Most likey to be that rate which the market will bear in an open capitalist economy.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> How many times per year, on average, do you boat on the reservoirs behind he 4 Lower Snake Dams? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't see this as a matter of my personal displacement from the reservoirs, but as a displacement to neighboring waterways of those that do use them. You and IT have been preaching the funneling of recreationist in your best interests, ie fewer reservoirs, more road cloures, more vehicle restrictions, and all in the interest of your own recreations, "because you don't like it".
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Do you believe it is the government's job to interfere with Free Market activities by subsidizing High Cost service providers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is that interference that allows for the lifestyles that the nation enjoys. Please tell the rest of us how it is you enjoy an unsubsidized lifestyle.
Your turn to put some answers on the board. You sound more like IT everyday.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 09-16-2003 11:28: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>

 

[JoseCuervo]

LMAO!!!! Ten.... that is funnier than He!!. You are worried about a price increase on $6.00 of grain per year!!!!

That is crackin' me up. For some reason, I thought you had some sort of legitimate, real concerns, and it turns out you are worried about a couple of pennies being added to the $6.00 of grain you eat each year. $6 flippin' dollars, and you worry about it. How much do you pay for your Salmon tag each year?

And I was also laughing at your understanding of economics. In one paragraph you say <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> which the market will bear in an open capitalist economy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And then in the later paragraphy you seem to be advocating government interference in the free markes. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It is that interference that allows for the lifestyles that the nation enjoys. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you crack me up on your understanding of commodity pricing, where you think that the increased costs will be passed on to the consumer.

Oh Where is Professor Paul when we need him.....