Do you guys really believe that all ATV riders break the law?

[FAIRCHASEBEN]

Ten ,
You seem to be the voice of reason for the ATV crowd so let me pose this question to you personally ;
Why is it that every hunter who owns an ATV only uses it to get to their hunting area but we never see them parked ?
None of the other ATV users has had the sack to respond to this question but I know you'll enlighten us with your wisdom .

 

[Delw]

Wow that reminds me I have to load dads Quad up before I head out tonight

Would I still be fat assed law breaking atv humphound if I dont take it off the trailer?


Fairchasen
Here in AZ I dont see vehicles parked either on the sides of roads, if they are parked the 2 doors are open , keys left in ignition the lawn chairs in the bed are turned over and the cheetos trail runs across the road.

Seriously I dont see that many trucks parked on the sides of roads here, most are at camp (with there quads still attached

Also I see more use of trucks and ATVs when its rifle season than when its bow season.


Delw

 

[JoseCuervo]

If ATVs are only used to retrieve wounded game, why do they take more than one???


TEn,
I doubt the IDFG's request for a fee increase has anything to do with disgruntled Fat-Assed ATV riders buying fewer tags. Instead, it has more to do with the fact they can only raise fees by legislative act, and they haven't raised them since 2000. Anybody who has successfully passed the 3rd grade would know that the cost of gas for the rigs has increased greatly since 2000. And so has electricity and other costs the Fish and Game has to cover.

Keep in mind we have had some Salmon seasons since 2000, and I know tons of first time fishermen who were buying licenses and Salmon tags.

But keep believing the problem is the lack of education of non-riders and that the drunk, Fat-Assed ATV riders are not to blame....

 

[Michaelr]

Bailey said forest officials have closed off some creek crossings to ATV use because the vehicles stir up mud and create ruts. But elk do the same thing, he said.

what can ya say to that??
I WOULD THINK THAT ELK HAVE A RIGHT TO BE THERE.

 

[Ithaca 37]

"Darren Bailey, an ATV rider from Fremont County for 38 years, said the problem stems from a lack of adequate trails."
Is anyone dumb enough to believe the fatassed crowd would stay on the trails if they had more miles of them? The whole advertising campaign about ATVs is that they can go anywhere. That's why the fatassed crowd buys them. If all they were ever going to do is trail ride, why would they need high horsepower, souped up, knobby tired, winch equiped, go anywhere, 4wd, power stroked, hemi, high speed, multi geared, badassed machines? So they could slowly putt down the trail?

Can you believe Bailey wants to shift the blame for muudy streams to the elk!

Now elk cause stream erosion and uneducated non-riders cause ATV violations!

There's no limit to how far the fatassed crowd will go to avoid any responsibility.

[ 09-29-2004, 22:40: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]

 

[JoseCuervo]

From a Georgia Newspaper...

ATVs try to shed 'nuisance' image

BY BRYAN BRASHER

Staff Writer


The very term "all-terrain vehicle" suggests the hulking, four-wheeled monsters are built to go anywhere.

But while the massive machines are plenty capable of blazing new trails, they are still governed by certain legal and common-sense parameters. And riders who venture outside those parameters paint a bad picture of all ATV owners.

"A few bad apples mess things up for everybody," said Shane Jones, an avid ATV rider from Columbus. "You never hear anything good about four-wheelers. It's all negative. People think we're all bad -- and they're wrong."

With huge tires, mighty engines and compact frames, ATVs give people a feeling of power and accessibility that goes far beyond that of the standard four-wheel-drive pickup truck. But those rugged tires and the sheer weight of the vehicles (more than 1,200 pounds in some cases) leave tracks that do little for forest decor.

It's that damage that causes many to take a dim view of ATVs.

In 2001, when the Georgia Department of Natural Resources proposed giving deer hunters access to Standing Boy Creek State Park in Columbus, residents of nearby Green Island Hills protested vehemently. They listed possible damage by ATVs as one of their chief concerns, and ATVs were ultimately disallowed on the property.

Just last week, residents of Seale, Ala., met at the Uchee Creek Volunteer Fire Department about disturbances created by riders from the nearby Dirty Dogg ATV track. Riders venturing off the track and trespassing onto their properties were among the homeowners' complaints.

Riders' reply

Local hunters have long argued that the ATV ban at Standing Boy Creek was unfair . Those who have hunted there during the past three deer seasons say the experience is far less enjoyable because deer killed on remote stretches of the property often have to be dragged great distances. Just how hard is it to pack a dinky Georgia Whitetail back to the road??? The Fat-Assed Crowd sure is lazy....

The owners at Dirty Dogg ATV track believe their customers are being unfairly characterized as hooligans because of a few lawbreakers.

"They're causing problems for us, too," said co-owner Mike McLaney. "They're trespassing after we're closed and vandalizing our stuff. We're not interested in that kind of clientele -- but people shouldn't just assume all of our customers are like that because they're not."

McLaney and fellow owner Matt Murphy pledged Tuesday night to catch those intentionally breaking the law in the areas near their track. But law enforcement officials say laws are also often broken accidentally by people who don't understand the laws governing ATVs.

Smart and legal

To avoid falling into that trap, it's important for riders to remember a few simple rules.

"First and foremost, you have to respect the landowners' right and wishes," said Ray Metzler, hunter education coordinator for the Alabama Department of Conservation and Natural Resources.

"There's no law that says you have to have written permission to ride on someone's property. But you should certainly ask permission before you go onto someone's property, or else you're trespassing."

Metzler said simple acts of courtesy are also important when riding on private property.

"If you have to go through a closed gate, you open it and then you close it back," he said. "Stay out of the creeks and fields -- areas that might be damaged by ATVs. Don't be making new roads on a man's property. Stay on the roads that are already there."

Mike Mount of the ATV Safety Institute said it's important for riders to remember that it's illegal to ride ATVs on paved roads in many states, including Alabama and Georgia. He also said that parents of ATV riders shouldn't take it for granted that their children will ride legally and safely.

"Riders under the age of 16 have to be supervised," Mount said. "ATVs have keys. You may not be able to watch your kids 24 hours a day, but you can certainly keep those keys out of their reach."

 

[Ithaca 37]

EG, Thanks for the article. Just verifies most of what we've been saying, except nobody will admit it's actually a majority of the fatassed crowd that's the problem.

Since our Arizona boys didn't know the law, how many other ATV riders do you suppose are ignorant of it? A tiny minority?

"But law enforcement officials say laws are also often broken accidentally by people who don't understand the laws governing ATVs." I'd say that's the majority.

This has been a great topic, but I'm anxious to get back to bashing welfare ranchers again.

 

[Delw]

Back to the main issue.

Elkgunner buzz and ithaca your are wrong about AZ.

in the kaibab forest you can use your ATV to retrieve game offroad.
I wont give the guys name who told me cause he might not want to start in this thread however he did talk to the forrest guy think he said it was BOB something) and BOB something told him there is no problem with it as long as you dont rip the area apart...
there was more to that as well, I might if I have time and see the forrest cop ask him about it and fill you in on exactly what he says.

If they guy who told me this can explain what he said on this thread it would be cool.


Delw

 

[guppie9]

EG, Thanks for the article. Just verifies most of what we've been saying, except nobody will admit it's actually a majority of the fatassed crowd that's the problem.

IT - So, let me get this straight. The article is reliable because it verifies most of what you've been saying, but it is UNRELIABLE when it talks about how it is a minority of riders that are causing the problems???? So, which is it??? Why are you willing to believe some of what these people say and not all of it???

I am willing to bet the illegal riders or those who think they can ride every ridge top is closer 50% or even 60% based upon how the trails looked.

Nemont - There are a couple of interesting things about that statement. One, I find it VERY interesting that we have gone from ALL ATV riders are bad, to most, and now to 50%. I think you are getting closer and your first example of 10% might be more accurate. The other thing is that you state that the ILLEGAL riders are doing the damage, and I think that has been my point all along. People are talking about banning a piece of machinery because some idiots are doing illegal things with it. Does this sound vaguely familiar to anyone??? Sounds a lot like the anti-gun lobby to me. Enforce the laws we have, make the punishments stiffer, but stop talking about banning something because a small percentage (I'm guessing less than 15%) of people are being irresponsible. What percentage of guns are used in crimes?? Should we ban those??? Anyone for that??? What percentage of people who drink have EVER driven while above the legal limit??? Should we ban alcohol???? No!!!! There are laws against drinking and driving, there are laws against using guns for criminal purposes, and there are laws against using ATV's improperly. Enforce those laws. Then we'll talk some more.


P.S. After looking back at my post, I think that the first thing we need to ban is my use of question marks. What do you think about that???? Does anyone agree???? Huh???????? Anyone???????

 

[pa mt man]

They don't need any more enforcement officers. I think I remember reading hunt talk member's posts saying they are turning in offenders. And these guys say they are not in the minority. Free police,can't beat that.

don

 

[MarvB]

it is hard for the "average person" to justify a really harsh penalty for a game violation or off road vehicle violation, when the judicial system seems to be so easy on "hard" criminals. Some people I have talked to about this problem say "How can you want a harsh penalty for driving off a road when real criminals selling drugs get slapped on the hand?"

MattK- Very good point...kind of like most other "white collar" crime IMHO...BUT...what if as a penalty/fine you give (kind of like a community service fine that "celebrities" get)the offending yahoo a pick, shovel, mattox, etc., and sentence them to X number of hours of trail/habitat restoration? I know quite a few folks (and yes, I own 2 quads but respect both the law and the environment) that have deep $$ pockets that would sheeeeit there sheets if they had to do three or four weekends of hard labor!

 

[JoseCuervo]

Originally posted by Delw:
Back to the main issue.

Elkgunner buzz and ithaca your are wrong about AZ.

in the kaibab forest you can use your ATV to retrieve game offroad.
I wont give the guys name who told me cause he might not want to start in this thread however he did talk to the forrest guy think he said it was BOB something) and BOB something told him there is no problem with it as long as you dont rip the area apart...
there was more to that as well, I might if I have time and see the forrest cop ask him about it and fill you in on exactly what he says.

If they guy who told me this can explain what he said on this thread it would be cool.


Delw

This kind of proves the entire point about the AZ boys. Instead of checking with the Agency that manages the land, we now "know" it is legal to retrieve game because of somebody who talked to somebody who talked to a forrest guy that might have been called "Bob".

Tell me again how the Fat-Assed ATV crowd is responsible, and makes sure they understand the laws???

As long as people are doing "due dilligence" of understanding where they can ride their ATVs like this, we will likely see all out bans and calls for the same.

 

[Nemont]

Guppie,
I am a little more reasonable regarding using the term "all" riders. My point is that enough riders are destroying habitat, peace and quiet and a public resource that perhaps a majority of people will vote to ban the machines. I believe that is an exercise of democracy.

It is not the same argument used to ban guns. I am pro gun ownership but still have a difficult time understanding why anyone would need a TEC-9.

The challenge with ATV's is that they destroy habitat when used as intended. Sort of like cigarettes. Why would someone drop $9,000 on a pimped out 4x4 600cc quad just to drive up and down the trails slowly? That is not what they buy them for, many people buy these machines to ride off road. Most people don't own a couple of thousand acres of their own deeded land to recreate on so they ride them on public land which allows me, a member of the public, a chance to voice my opinion that too much habitat is being destroyed by these machines.

You know what we use them on the ranch to move cows. They are an invaluable tool on and around the ranch. They are one of the best vehicles to have to move farm machinery from field to field. Put on in the back of the pickup and drop it off where you need. I understand the utility of the vehicles my problem is how they are being used to destroy land and habitat.

Nemont

 

[JoseCuervo]

Nemont,

You are correct on ATVs being invaluable "tools" around the ranch. It is much quicker to start an ATV than it is to go catch a gelding, saddle the SOB up, and then ride out to push cattle around.

And just like a welder, shovel, or irrigation boots, I would never think anybody should take farm tools out on public grounds. Might as well take the John Deere or the Cat out hunting...

 

[Nemont]

EG,
Also you don't have to feed it every day, even when it is 30 below.

Nemont

 

[Ithaca 37]

guppie, What do you think the chances are of getting the FS and BLM to budget and allocate funds for three or four enforcement officers for every national forest and BLM district? That would be the bare minimum needed. Get real. It's not going to happen. So you can talk all you want about enforcing the laws, but it will never amount to anything.

 

[Casper]

And just like a welder, shovel, or irrigation boots, I would never think anybody should take farm tools out on public grounds. Might as well take the John Deere or the Cat out hunting...

Now I know of some good ol boys that SWEAR by their International Harvesters for deer stands in the wheat fields!

Seriously though THE biggest problem with ATV's and 4x4 vehicles in general is that fact that they cause damage when used offroad...PERIOD

The Cause of this is simple, there isn't enough enforcement to stop "ignorant" or uncaring lawbreakers from doing this, and when caught most state and federal laws are laughable at the punishment delt out. Just as it is laughable that a person caught driving in a carpool lane in Phx pays more than a DUI driver in fines. I have always been told "ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law" and I take it to heart cause what you don't know can and will get you into trouble.

The Answer to the ATV problems? that isn't simple as unlike hunters, shooters, and other "sportsman groups" ATV and Offroad activities don't have the support base of organizations to help "educate" riders, self enforce laws, nor help propose reasonable legislation to prevent problems. I think the FIRST step is to enforce the rules already there, increase fines and/or civil service times, and add jail time to those who are repeat offenders. Also there needs to be steps to increase patrols of problem areas, and resources given to allow officers to stop these riders. In Maricopa county (for example) many serriff deputies have gotten where they don't even bother anymore to try and apprehend atv/quad/trailbike riders cause as soon as their lights come on in that nice comferable crown victoria the atv goes cross country leaving the deputy in the dust.

BTW in Az it is not a requirement to "register" an ATV/ quad/ dirtbike if it doesn't "travel on any goverment maintained road" as such you see many of the ATV's and Dirtbikes running around with no way to Identify it other than "that yellow bike, and the rider was in a green and black riding suit" which could be half of the bikes in the county!

And for those in Az if you really want to see where most of the problems come from (in our state) check out some of the local dirt/ trail vehicle forums and read the topics in there. Most of the riders will go whereever "so and so" says it is ok to ride because they "have been doing it for years", with out doing any research, and when someone say that area is off limits, they are the ones "flamed" or otherwise not believed. (I'll find a perfect example of such things and post it, once I dig thru my passwords and find it for the "riding arizona" page)

 

[MarvB]

And just like a welder, shovel, or irrigation boots, I would never think anybody should take farm tools out on public grounds

I'm gonna have to start another arguement here Gunner- I hunt public ground and my pickup is never without tire chains and a shovel this time of year....

 

[guppie9]

Nemont -

Thanks for the reasonable reply to my post. I know I can count on you to have an intelligent conversation. That is what I was looking for when I posted. However, many people are unable to do that.

I, personally, didn't drop 9K on a pimped out 600cc quad. I dropped 6K on a base model 350cc quad. I got it in camo because I thought it reflected my personality as a hunter. One of the big reasons I got it was for the snowplow attachment. I have about a 150 ft long driveway that can fit three cars wide and beleive me, living in Alaska, that was not fun to clear by hand!!!

But, I also thought it would be fun to go out and recreate on. Beleive it or not, there are a multitude of LEGAL trails throughout the interior of Alaska. I know they are legal because they are marked and posted. In fact, there is a small trail that will take me to several others that is adjacent to my property, so I don't have to load up my truck if I want to go out and piddle around. But, I am lucky. Maybe I am the exception to the rule, I don't know. I do know that I have rarely seen any illegal activity up here. Perhaps it is because of all the legal trails so people don't feel the need to make their own. Maybe it is because, I think, Alaskans, in general, have a higher regard for the environment than many in the lower 48. I don't know. Like I said before, when I lived in Arizona, I didn't see any problems with hunters and ATV's. However, that was 7-8 years ago and ATV's are MUCH more prevalent now. Oh, and BTW...with the price of fuel nowadays, I think I would rather feed a horse!!!!

Casper -

I haven't had a chance to welcome you yet. I will let you know that I have appreciated your well thought out and intelligent responses on many different subjects. You are a most welcome addition. I served in the army for 5 years but never was deployed into a combat area. Keep your head down. I couldn't agree with you more about enforcing the laws we have already and making the punishments more severe. I see that as a good first step, as opposed to going directly to banning them. In Alaska, we are required to register and display stickers on our ATV's and snowmachines, so perhaps, that helps to explain our ability to be more responsible up here.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Gusieppe,

Look at this post by memtb in the Fireside section. Things may have changed down here, in the lower 48, as it is bad, and getting worse.

Originally posted by memtb:
My wife and I met Elkhunter and LB about 3 weeks ago. Had a good lunch at Bubba's, and good conversation.
I know it's been a while before I mentioned our get together, but we've been away from the net for 3 weeks.
To summarize My wife's moose hunt, "NO Shots Fired". We've not seen the right one yet, but the qualifications fora moose dying,are getting lower!!
I'm really dissapointed in the Grey's River area. It's been 15 years since I've hunted it. The ATV operators are showing how irresponsible that many of them are. Road closures mean nothing, and starting a new trail is only as hard as a turn of the handlebars. SOMETHING needs to be done and soon!!
Now, for my next b*#%! IMHO, PISS POOR GAME MANAGEMENT BY THE WY. G&F!! Granted, we weren't hunting in prime muledeer habitat.But,in 18 days in the field, we saw one(1), one horned spike muledeer. A few years ago, near Kemmerer, a blind man stumbling around after dark would have seen more deer!Very few deer were taken in the Grey's this year and even fewer trophy class animals. And, this is still a GENERAL area to WY. residents. Again,IMHO,the G&F either needs to close it entirely or make it a draw area. This may bring it back to the quality of hunting it used to be. Of course this would reduce license fees collected, and we can't have that "Now can we"!!!

Well, I feel a little better now! Where's my pills? I need my PILLS! I NEED THEM NOW!!!! -memtb

Our registration stickers in Idaho are about 4" by 5", maybe smaller. And we wrap them on the frame, under the gas tank. The only way you can see them is to stand on your head and wash the mud off. Not much risk in getting caught.