“Custom” rifle build

[antelopedundee]

Uhmmm....Never? What are you calling customizing? I guess almost anything you do is “customizing”. That’s not what I mean when I refer to a “custom action”. Are you comparing it to “custom” action companies? Trueing/blue printing, is just correcting any manufacturing errors that may have occurred. It does not fundamentally change the design of the action or bolt. You might consider reaming the bolt bore and sleeving the bolt a design change because you’re decreasing the tolerance below what was designed in. A custom action from Surgeon, Defiance, Stiller, Kelbly’s etc. is a different action all together. Even in their 700 “clones” you get a better bolt setup. Most of those actions, even when based on a Remington 700, have actual design changes that improve things.

I’m a big fan of Remington 700’s. I just wouldn’t spend much trying to improve the action before I’d go with a custom action. First of all, they’re fairly good as is. As mentioned, lap the lugs, have the smith square the face when he barrels it. I don’t know what a smith charges for that, might add less than $50 to the barrel work. I wouldn’t do much more than $200 extra work to a 700 action before I’d just get a custom action. A Defiance Tenacity has an MSRP of $885. It’s better than any “blue printed” Remington 700. The two might be equally accurate, but action is stainless, the bolt is far better than a Remington. The recoil lug us built in and standardized, so you can swap barrels from one to another. The resale on it is going to be excellent. A Stiller can be had at an MSRP of $975, again stainless, has an anti-bind rail for the bolt, the bolt is nitrided. I’m sure there are ton of other advantages as well. My last few Remingtons have had an anti bind rail from the factory...but they don’t smooth thing out like a custom action. If you ever get a hold of a real custom action and compare it to a 700 you’ll see the value. Like I say, you can make a 700 shoot as good as any thing else on the planet. You can get really close without even doing much to it. The difference is elsewhere. There is no amount of truing/blue printing that will make a Remington 700 worth spending the same amount of money in that you would a custom action.

I’m talking about the action. Not the entire gun. I wouldn’t hesitate to put a Krieger barrel($360 plus $200+ chambering and fitting) and a McMillan or Manners stock on one. I just wouldn’t spend much trying to improve the action itself.

I would think that bushing the firing pin, replacing the extractor, sleeving the bolt or even messing with the bolt release would border on customizingbecause they are modifications to the factory issue and not corrections or adjustments.

Here is a good discussion of Remington factory actions.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/the-buds-gun-shop-rr-remington-timing.3989540/

An interesting post from the thread.

"The fixture that holds the handles for soldering must be a real good one- nice, solid and built to last because they have been putting them in the same wrong spot since the 70’s"

Makes you wonder why they never fixed it right in all those years. Can't say that I've ever experienced the extraction issue. I currently have an action in the shop with instructions to true as needed and check the extraction.

 

[ImBillT]

I would think that bushing the firing pin, replacing the extractor, sleeving the bolt or even messing with the bolt release would border on customizingbecause they are modifications to the factory issue and not corrections or adjustments.

Here is a good discussion of Remington factory actions.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/the-buds-gun-shop-rr-remington-timing.3989540/

An interesting post from the thread.

"The fixture that holds the handles for soldering must be a real good one- nice, solid and built to last because they have been putting them in the same wrong spot since the 70’s"

Makes you wonder why they never fixed it right in all those years. Can't say that I've ever experienced the extraction issue. I currently have an action in the shop with instructions to true as needed and check the extraction.

How bout this. “I wouldn’t spend more than a couple hundred dollars customizing a Remington 700, because a vastly superior action from a small manufacturer that doesn’t mass produce actions and has corrected a lot of design flaws can be had for under $900 at full MSRP.”

Bushing the firing pin centers the strike on the primer, which some people believe results in less velocity variation. I’m not sure how conclusive those results actually are. I’ve never had a firing pin bushed and have developed plenty of loads with single digit SDs. It is a correction of a sloppy fit between the firing pin and the firing pin hole, or an off center placement.

Reaming the bolt bore and sleeving the bolt body is to center the bolt in the action to avoid putting any pressure on the case head and cause misalignment of the case in the chamber. It isn’t primarily to increase smoothness or decrease bind like a fluted and/or nitrided bolt. Although the tighter tolerance can help a little. The process is primarily done to correct a loose fit of the bolt in the bolt bore that results in the bolt face being out of alignment with the chamber. I would still consider this a correction more than customizing anything.

Timing the bolt isn’t a modification. It’s a correction if sloppily placing the bolt handle. I actually have a couple 700’s that would benefit from this. They engage a little late, and extraction can be difficult in the case of an excessively hot load. Otherwise it’s not an issue. Bolts so out of time that they cause issues on normal pressure loads are pretty rare. I’ve pulled two bolt handles off. They were poorly soldered to the bolt body from the factory. You can’t do that with a one-piece bolt.

Adding a bolt stop/release that isn’t part of the trigger is a customization, but it’s not really for accuracy. It’s for increased ease of use.

So, you can do all that stuff to a Remington 700 if you want. You still haven’t correct everything. You also still won’t have an action as good as a custom action. Remington bolt bodies are a little soft. I don’t know what they’re hardened to, but the cocking ramp can gall. Locking lugs can gall pretty easily too. It takes a light firing pin and a pretty stiff spring to get lock-time as fast as most customs, and that contributes to galling and extra effort on bolt opening compared to a lot of custom actions out there. I haven’t used them all.(I’ve personally used an old Meyer, a hand full of Stillers, and a couple Bats) My old Meyer opened so easy you wondered if it even cocked. Different custom actions have different cocking piece geometry, different ramp geometry, and of course large bolt diameters can decrease cocking effort as well. You can pin a 700 recoil lug, or just get a custom action that has the recoil lug built in. You correct scope base screw hole alignment, or get a custom action that has a base built in. You can ream a bolt bore and buy a custom one-piece bolt, or just buy a custom action that comes with a one-piece bolt. I swear by Remington 700 actions, but equal to a custom they are not. Most of my rifles are Remington 700s. They work just fine, and shoot great. You don’t have to use a custom action to have an excellent hunting rifle. A completely untouched Remington 700 is a great basis for a hunting rifle. A few cheap improvements is even better. My only point is that I wouldn’t sink much into trying to improve the action before I would just move on completely. You can get off into the weeds very quickly and in the end, a little more money would buy something far better than a 700 action.

 

[antelopedundee]

How bout this. “I wouldn’t spend more than a couple hundred dollars customizing a Remington 700, because a vastly superior action from a small manufacturer that doesn’t mass produce actions and has corrected a lot of design flaws can be had for under $900 at full MSRP.”

Bushing the firing pin centers the strike on the primer, which some people believe results in less velocity variation. I’m not sure how conclusive those results actually are. I’ve never had a firing pin bushed and have developed plenty of loads with single digit SDs. It is a correction of a sloppy fit between the firing pin and the firing pin hole, or an off center placement.

Reaming the bolt bore and sleeving the bolt body is to center the bolt in the action to avoid putting any pressure on the case head and cause misalignment of the case in the chamber. It isn’t primarily to increase smoothness or decrease bind like a fluted and/or nitrided bolt. Although the tighter tolerance can help a little. The process is primarily done to correct a loose fit of the bolt in the bolt bore that results in the bolt face being out of alignment with the chamber. I would still consider this a correction more than customizing anything.

Timing the bolt isn’t a modification. It’s a correction if sloppily placing the bolt handle. I actually have a couple 700’s that would benefit from this. They engage a little late, and extraction can be difficult in the case of an excessively hot load. Otherwise it’s not an issue. Bolts so out of time that they cause issues on normal pressure loads are pretty rare. I’ve pulled two bolt handles off. They were poorly soldered to the bolt body from the factory. You can’t do that with a one-piece bolt.

Adding a bolt stop/release that isn’t part of the trigger is a customization, but it’s not really for accuracy. It’s for increased ease of use.

So, you can do all that stuff to a Remington 700 if you want. You still haven’t correct everything. You also still won’t have an action as good as a custom action. Remington bolt bodies are a little soft. I don’t know what they’re hardened to, but the cocking ramp can gall. Locking lugs can gall pretty easily too. It takes a light firing pin and a pretty stiff spring to get lock-time as fast as most customs, and that contributes to galling and extra effort on bolt opening compared to a lot of custom actions out there. I haven’t used them all.(I’ve personally used an old Meyer, a hand full of Stillers, and a couple Bats) My old Meyer opened so easy you wondered if it even cocked. Different custom actions have different cocking piece geometry, different ramp geometry, and of course large bolt diameters can decrease cocking effort as well. You can pin a 700 recoil lug, or just get a custom action that has the recoil lug built in. You correct scope base screw hole alignment, or get a custom action that has a base built in. You can ream a bolt bore and buy a custom one-piece bolt, or just buy a custom action that comes with a one-piece bolt. I swear by Remington 700 actions, but equal to a custom they are not. Most of my rifles are Remington 700s. They work just fine, and shoot great. You don’t have to use a custom action to have an excellent hunting rifle. A completely untouched Remington 700 is a great basis for a hunting rifle. A few cheap improvements is even better. My only point is that I wouldn’t sink much into trying to improve the action before I would just move on completely. You can get off into the weeds very quickly and in the end, a little more money would buy something far better than a 700 action.

Agree. I wouldn't require much more than a few basic things. A friend who is a BR shooter and makes some of the very best match bullets says he would NEVER pay PTG prices for their "printed" Remington actions. Might as well buy right the first time. If I was going to buy a custom action it would probably be a Borden. Hopefully any smith worthy of the name would have obvious deficiencies corrected before sending something incorrect back to a customer with his name on it.

There are a couple of folks mentioned in my referenced thread who can fix your bolt handle issue if it bothers you enough to do something about it.

Frankly, I personally don't need a $1200 custom action to hunt with. I've been fortunate with the 6 or 7 Rem 700 based rifles I have not to have extraction issues or scope base holes drilled out of alignment or whatever. I suppose for Remington it's cheaper just to ship stuff out the door and deal with it "if" it comes back.

To their credit a lot of the custom makers wisely offer something in the Remington footprint.

 

[ImBillT]

Agree. I wouldn't require much more than a few basic things. A friend who is a BR shooter and makes some of the very best match bullets says he would NEVER pay PTG prices for their "printed" Remington actions. Might as well buy right the first time. If I was going to buy a custom action it would probably be a Borden. Hopefully any smith worthy of the name would have obvious deficiencies corrected before sending something incorrect back to a customer with his name on it.

There are a couple of folks mentioned in my referenced thread who can fix your bolt handle issue if it bothers you enough to do something about it.

Frankly, I personally don't need a $1200 custom action to hunt with. I've been fortunate with the 6 or 7 Rem 700 based rifles I have not to have extraction issues or scope base holes drilled out of alignment or whatever. I suppose for Remington it's cheaper just to ship stuff out the door and deal with it "if" it comes back.

To their credit a lot of the custom makers wisely offer something in the Remington footprint.

I can fix my bolt timing issues if it bothers me enough to do something about it. I have one 700 with fairly bad base screws holes, but it’s easy enough to put two screws in and epoxy the base on. I have a few pretty off-center firing pin strikes. I don’t think it matters. Their new actions are a lot better than the older ones. More machines. Fewer people. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with using one as the basis for hunting rig, and their useable as a competition rig. I have. I wouldn’t do much work to one for either purpose. There isn’t much to gain, and getting there will put you in striking distance of something better. Unfortunately I pulled one of those bolt handles off during sighters at a match.

 

[2BrownDogs]

All,

Big thanks to all of you for your time and thoughtful responses. I enjoyed the feedback and learned a lot reading your posts. In the end, I’ve decided to order a Seekins Havak PH2 after stumbling across a 25% off code on another forum. Hard to beat the price on that quality rifle in my opinion. The plan is to swap the factory (McMillin Game Warden, I believe) with a thumbhole stock. I’m 95% sure I’m going with the 300 PRC over the 28 Nosler. I’m confident this setup will do everything I want it to do and more. Thanks again for your time.
C

 

[Big Slick]

I had my Remington 700 in 7 mm Rem Mag action trued up, trigger tech trigger, new muzzle break and a load built for it for $700. It shoots 168 grain Berger’s. It shooting 4” groups at 850 yards. Original barrel and stock are still on the rifle. I will never shoot at an animal at that distance, but it is capable in the right hands.

 

[MO Betta]

All,

Big thanks to all of you for your time and thoughtful responses. I enjoyed the feedback and learned a lot reading your posts. In the end, I’ve decided to order a Seekins Havak PH2 after stumbling across a 25% off code on another forum. Hard to beat the price on that quality rifle in my opinion. The plan is to swap the factory (McMillin Game Warden, I believe) with a thumbhole stock. I’m 95% sure I’m going with the 300 PRC over the 28 Nosler. I’m confident this setup will do everything I want it to do and more. Thanks again for your time.
C

I believe they switched from the Game Warden on the early PH1s to one made in house, for the later PH1s and now the PH2s