Barrel Re-Crowning

[Losing_Sanity]

Thanks everyone for your input. I appreciate the informed explanations and clarification. I have already performed some of the checks that have been suggested, and I will take a look at the other stuff soon.

Some info on the rifle:
1) Ruger Hawkeye, 300 RCM, 22 inch barrel (I think)
2) When I bought the rifle I used factory Hornady Custom ammo, 150 grn. and 165 grn. Had fair groups with 150 grn. (2.5" to 3.5" @ 100 yrds) but not consistent.
3) Had the rifle glass bedded, free floated.
4) I installed a Timney trigger adjusted to 3 pounds pull.
5) Attempted to work up loads with various powders, bullets, primers and mostly Hornady Brass. Settled on Sierra SBT 150 grns with an estimated velocity of around 2800fps (based on reloading data) but I think it's probably slower than that. Groups are 2" to 2.5" @ 100 yrds with about every 4 or 5 shots experiences what I call a Zinger. One bullet flies about 4.5" from center of the group. This anomaly does not occur when shooting other rifles. I could never get heavier bullets to group closer than 4 or 5 inches.
6) Swapped out scopes, rings, and bases.
7) Checked all screws for tightness. Did not over tight, just ensured not loose.
8) ensured powder calibration about every 3rd round.
9) Seated bullets a long as I could to accommodate magazine length and feeding but bullets do not reach the lands.

That's about the summery that comes to mind. Like I stated in an earlier post, I had to take a break from the rifle due to frustration.

Again, I appreciate everyone's input and suggestions, Thanks!

 

[AggieOutlaw]

There was a blog/YT post that showed velocity vs. barrel length by using a chop saw to cut an inch off the barrel. The author commented on the surprisingly small effect on accuracy of not properly recrowning the barrel.

I've seen folks recrown with lapping compound and a button head screw in the chuck of a hand drill.

I don't think either of these processes is ideal.

I'm convinced a good crown is important. But I'm not convinced it's the most important factor for barrel accuracy. That said, it costs $30 at my gunsmith for craftsman perfection. Not worth my time. (plus if the gun's not shooting, a gunsmith, for the price or a recrown, may tell you why or even fix it for you)

 

[Dr. Vette]

Thanks everyone for your input. I appreciate the informed explanations and clarification. I have already performed some of the checks that have been suggested, and I will take a look at the other stuff soon.

Some info on the rifle:
1) Ruger Hawkeye, 300 RCM, 22 inch barrel (I think)
2) When I bought the rifle I used factory Hornady Custom ammo, 150 grn. and 165 grn. Had fair groups with 150 grn. (2.5" to 3.5" @ 100 yrds) but not consistent.
3) Had the rifle glass bedded, free floated.
4) I installed a Timney trigger adjusted to 3 pounds pull.
5) Attempted to work up loads with various powders, bullets, primers and mostly Hornady Brass. Settled on Sierra SBT 150 grns with an estimated velocity of around 2800fps (based on reloading data) but I think it's probably slower than that. Groups are 2" to 2.5" @ 100 yrds with about every 4 or 5 shots experiences what I call a Zinger. One bullet flies about 4.5" from center of the group. This anomaly does not occur when shooting other rifles. I could never get heavier bullets to group closer than 4 or 5 inches.
6) Swapped out scopes, rings, and bases.
7) Checked all screws for tightness. Did not over tight, just ensured not loose.
8) ensured powder calibration about every 3rd round.
9) Seated bullets a long as I could to accommodate magazine length and feeding but bullets do not reach the lands.

That's about the summery that comes to mind. Like I stated in an earlier post, I had to take a break from the rifle due to frustration.

Again, I appreciate everyone's input and suggestions, Thanks!

Looking at #9 - have you tried different seating depths with your "best" load?
Or just stayed with the longest load you could feed?

Your rifle might not like them long.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

Looking at #9 - have you tried different seating depths with your "best" load?
Or just stayed with the longest load you could feed?

Your rifle might not like them long.

Longest load that would feed. My thought process was to get to the lands but couldn't due to the magazine length. I guess I could try to go shorter, but that logic seems opposite of the goal to me. Its worth a try....

 

[Bigjay73]

Haven't read every post, but have you tried any factory ammo through it? If not, I'd give a few types a try.

 

[ImBillT]

I think I’d sell it.

Sometimes a gun just won’t shoot.

That said, your velocity is quite low for a 150gr bullet from that cartridge. Unless you’re using a fast powder, you’ll have very low pressures. You could be getting a pretty inconsistent burn as well as a lot of soot. You could give your barrel a good scrub and work your way toward a max load using magnum primers. Or of course one last box of factory ammo.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

I think I’d sell it.

Sometimes a gun just won’t shoot.

Well ImBilt, you might be on something there.

Early in the post std7nag did say he could use another Ruger...

If all else fails, i'm always looking for another Ruger.. :

But that would only be pushing my problem off to someone else, and I wouldn't do that without full disclosure. After I play with it some more and try all the great suggestions that were offered, I'll take it to a gunsmith and let them work on it for awhile. That way at least I'll be contributing to the local economy and keeping a person employed. Might end up an expensive unique paper weight.

 

[ImBillT]

Well ImBilt, you might be on something there.

Early in the post std7nag did say he could use another Ruger...



But that would only be pushing my problem off to someone else, and I wouldn't do that without full disclosure. After I play with it some more and try all the great suggestions that were offered, I'll take it to a gunsmith and let them work on it for awhile. That way at least I'll be contributing to the local economy and keeping a person employed. Might end up an expensive unique paper weight.

Definitely disclose everything if you sell it. The buyer might want to buy and turn it into something else, or simply be happy with 2” groups. You might take a loss on it, but it might be cheaper than sorting out whatever is or isn’t the problem. My dad has rechambered a lot of Rem 700’s for himself, myself and friends. Almost without exception they e shot better than before rechambering, and some to a greater degree than others. I think sometimes production chamber jobs end up a little out of alignment with the bore, especially with hammer forged barrels where manufactures forge a rough chamber into the barrel and do a quick finish job with a reamer that may or may not have a pilot and may or may not get properly indicated in. Whatever the problem, sometimes it just isn’t worth fooling with anymore.

 

[std7mag]

Hmmm, hadn't really thought of re-barreling it.
Maybe the 25-350 Rem Mag that i've got a hankering for.. :

 

[Losing_Sanity]

Check runout, and neck tension on your loaded ammo. Sometimes a bad set of dies can cause issue. (I’m no longer a fan of Hornady dies, but it’s by no means limited to them)

Why not Hornady? I don't think I have heard poor reviews about them. I just realized that is the die set that I have been using. Perhaps I'll get an RCBS set and see if it makes a difference. Something I did not consider is the die. Which manufacture do you usually recommend?

 

[ImBillT]

Why not Hornady? I don't think I have heard poor reviews about them. I just realized that is the die set that I have been using. Perhaps I'll get an RCBS set and see if it makes a difference. Something I did not consider is the die. Which manufacture do you usually recommend?

I like Redding, Forster/Bonanza, RCBS in that order for the non-custom stuff. Some of the old Pacific stuff is decent.


After having some unexplained issues and using Hornady dies I took a closer look at them. The seaters were sort of “universal”. The sleeve hardly has any body portion in it(and that’s oversized) the shoulder angle is super sharp(even sharper than an ackley) and the neck hole is oversized to fit any neck diameter in that caliber(not cartridge). Worse than that, the bullet channel was .002”-.003” oversized depending on which die I examined, and the seating stems were all undersized. While I was at it I checked out some sizing buttons and found them to vary in diameter. In contrast, Forster uses a bullet channel that is only half a thou over bullet diameter. Wilson(who I no longer do business with due to the new partner having destroying their customer service) used to do the same, but has gone to a .001” over channel and an ultra tight fitting stem to allow the bullet to float and center itself based on the interface between the stem and the ogive. Redding Custom Competition dies really can’t be beaten outside of actual custom dies.

Some loads/cartridges/chambers are less sensitive to runout. I’ve seen guys using Hornady dies shoot good groups.
I got an RCBS set for the wildcat I was having trouble with and the majority of my problems vanished.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

I like Redding, Forster/Bonanza, RCBS in that order for the non-custom stuff. Some of the old Pacific stuff is decent.


After having some unexplained issues and using Hornady dies I took a closer look at them. The seaters were sort of “universal”. The sleeve hardly has any body portion in it(and that’s oversized) the shoulder angle is super sharp(even sharper than an ackley) and the neck hole is oversized to fit any neck diameter in that caliber(not cartridge). Worse than that, the bullet channel was .002”-.003” oversized depending on which die I examined, and the seating stems were all undersized. While I was at it I checked out some sizing buttons and found them to vary in diameter. In contrast, Forster uses a bullet channel that is only half a thou over bullet diameter. Wilson(who I no longer do business with due to the new partner having destroying their customer service) used to do the same, but has gone to a .001” over channel and an ultra tight fitting stem to allow the bullet to float and center itself based on the interface between the stem and the ogive. Redding Custom Competition dies really can’t be beaten outside of actual custom dies.

Some loads/cartridges/chambers are less sensitive to runout. I’ve seen guys using Hornady dies shoot good groups.
I got an RCBS set for the wildcat I was having trouble with and the majority of my problems vanished.

Wow, I had no idea there would be so much difference. I have used Hornady for a while. Who would think that when you buy a persision type tool that there could be so much variation. I will definitely give a new die set a try. Thanks for the information and recommendation.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

If I was going to spend any more money on that rifle it would be to rebarrel it. If I was to rebarrel it I would true the action at the same time.

Good point. I think a good gunsmith could pull the barrel and maybe true it up. I think I've seen where gunsmiths can take a rifle and make it more accurate that way. But you may be right and a new barrel might be in order. Like I stated in an earlier post, I want to try all the great suggestions that folks have taken the time to share first and then I'll let a gunsmith play with it. I think I'm spending money on it either way.

You know, I've always said there are three things a guy needs from his kids; a good doctor, a good lawyer, and a good mechanic. I guess I need to add to that to include a good gunsmith.

 

[Dr. Vette]

I would not rebarrel it unless the rifle has some notable significance to you, or you got it for free.

Ruger Hawkeyes are not expensive rifles. You will put as much into it to rebarrel it (or close) as it is worth.

It's far less $ to sell it and move on. Some days you have to cut your losses.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

My son and I both took 3 random shells and rolled them on the table. Watched straight on and from the side. We did not see any wobble. I would imagine you could miss a slight alignment deviation. I ordered a new die set anyway. Kind of hard to find 300 RCM now. I'll see if that helps any.

 

[cahunter805]

Your dies seem to be ok. Runout would have to be extremely bad to cause groups like that at 100 yards. You would see a noticeable wobble when rolling them.
It seems you have done quite a bit to this rifle. I personally wouldn’t spend any more money on upgrades or trying to make it shoot better.
I would try a few different handloads and see if you can’t shrink the groups some.
Load up some bullets in 165gr and 180gr something like the accubonds. Sometimes a rifle just shoots better with heavier bullets. Have seen it plenty of times.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

Figured I would revisit this one. I haven't had much time to work on loads in a while for this rifle. I decided to check the overall length of the reloads. As I mentioned above in the post, I seated to a length of 2.857 to allow for the magazine area. The overall length to the lands is 3.150 and the bullet was touching the brass, but did not seat into the brass. A jump to the rifling of .293 seems excessive to me. Is this normal? The book calls for an overall length in the 2.840 range. I am thinking of playing with the seating depth, but this doesn't look right. What is excessive?

Thanks for the help.

 

[cahunter805]

That is somewhat long but this is a 300RCM correct? I still think you should load some 180gr bullets and see how it groups. Also what powders have you been using? The RCM being a short magnum case design would most likely benefit from something like RL19, Hybrid 100v, RL23.
Honestly it could just be a bad barrel or chamber job also.

 

[44hunter45]

Figured I would revisit this one. I haven't had much time to work on loads in a while for this rifle. I decided to check the overall length of the reloads. As I mentioned above in the post, I seated to a length of 2.857 to allow for the magazine area. The overall length to the lands is 3.150 and the bullet was touching the brass, but did not seat into the brass. A jump to the rifling of .293 seems excessive to me. Is this normal? The book calls for an overall length in the 2.840 range. I am thinking of playing with the seating depth, but this doesn't look right. What is excessive?

Thanks for the help.

Wow.
I would contact Ruger Warranty and ask tell them you think this rifle has excessive freebore. I have only ever had to return one firearm to Ruger and they were fantastic about it.
You want to be able to tell them that no factory ammo shoots better that 2 MOA. Don't bring handloads into the conversation.

Also- One place that can cause trouble, especially with plastic stocks. is the magazine box. No matter how much you bed, a non-pillared plastic stock will compress under screw tension until the magazine box is squeezed between the bottom metal and the action.
This means the mag box is preventing consistent tension between the action and the stock. I have all my rifles set up so I can just wiggle the box with the stock screws torqued. I'm not saying it's a fix-all for every rifle, but this took my MKii 264WM from a 2 MOA shooter to a 1/2 MOA shooter.

 

[Losing_Sanity]

That is somewhat long but this is a 300RCM correct? I still think you should load some 180gr bullets and see how it groups. Also what powders have you been using? The RCM being a short magnum case design would most likely benefit from something like RL19, Hybrid 100v, RL23.
Honestly it could just be a bad barrel or chamber job also.

Yes it's 300 RCM. I have shop 180s also. I may try them again, it's worth a try.