AR 15 and 10 type rifles

[VikingsGuy]

Constitution of United States of America - 2nd Amendment

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Just to be clear, every single one of the Bill of Rights provisions is subject to legislative and judicial restriction. The 1st, the 4th and yes the 2nd. I am pro 2ndAmend, but it is over simplistic to suggest it is inviolate. In fact until the last 11 years not a single SCOTUS ruling ever held that the 2ndAmend created a personal right as we think of it in this thread - it was primarily viewed as a state right. So while I like the current court position, it is far from written in stone, and is in fact one of our most recent individual liberties. So I am not sure where some of the “2ndAmend is a 200 year inviolate right that only modern lefties have dared question” comes from. More accurately, our currrent constitutional-based personal right to own guns is a fairly modern construct of modern conservative thinkers. One I hope that continues, but not one I will hold out as a slam dunk sledgehammer on the issue. And one that is in fact one dead conservative justice from being reversed.

 

[Addicting]

@jake23

Answering this question of “mass shootings” with laws will do nothing.



I agree the first interview on the news should not be a senator or congressman. However, if school systems were properly funded thru those laws, it would do something. There are several security and notification programs available to school systems that they just can’t afford. So they are doing what they can with what they have.

If police departments were funded to have a assigned officer to each school things could change.

If nationally teachers were free to get fire arm training and have the ability to use it, things would change.

The law does need to change, but change in the right direction. You are right in one aspect, No knee jerk gun law is going to help or fix anything.

 

[Gerald Martin]

 

[RockinU]

I don't think the argument should be labeled with slippery slope, I think everyone needs to recognize that those who wish to diminish our right to own firearms see the AR-15 as a low hanging fruit. It's been demonstrated in this thread, there are gun owners out there who are willing to sacrifice the AR-15 in order to appease the antis. You need to understand that when they ban AR-15's, and mass shootings continue, they will fixate on another type of gun, and they will come for that.

We will have another Charles Whitman, and the antis will ask "why does anyone need a high powered rifle capable of making a 400 yard shot", and all of a sudden grandpa's pre 64 model 70 will be a deadly sniper rifle, the most sinister and cold killing machine imaginable...and they'll want it.

Proposing gun control to fix mass shootings is a cop out. It seems an easy feel good solution, yet it's not a solution at all. You really want to curb mass shootings you better roll your sleeves up, because it's going to be way harder than banning 30 round mags. Until you figure out how to address disparities in opportunity and education, until you find a way to preserve the family, and identify and mitigate mental illness, until you bridge the vast landscape of hatred that is growing in this country, heal political divisions, salve long simmering cultural distrusts, and blind people from seeing everyone else as "others", all your new laws are just going to be pissing in the ocean.

Sorry, it's just not going to be easy, and "just doing something" when that something doesn't mitigate the problem is worse than useless, especially when it punishes those who have done nothing for which to be punished.

 

[rtraverdavis]

Actually, in my area there isn’t a public school I know of without at least one School Safety Officer. There are several schools that allow concealed carry for the teachers. They also practice school shooter scenarios. Inside the classrooms are door stops to prevent access.

I’m sorry you feel we aren’t doing anything, in reality we are doing a lot more then when I went to school in the 80 and 90s.

That's awesome, but not happening in my school, my school district, or any of the districts around us. If your scenario were more common place, it'd at least be a step in the right direction.

 

[std7mag]

While i don't own one, and have no desire to own one.
Shall Not Be Infringed applies to all in my book.

Besides, i look at the AR guy as cannon fodder when SHTF.
I'll be the guy in the Ghillie suit 1,000 yards plus taking one well aimed shot.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

@jake23

If nationally teachers were free to get fire arm training and have the ability to use it, things would change.

Both my parents were teachers, my aunt was a teacher, many of of college friends are teachers, most of my parents friends were teachers.

No this is lunacy.

Also the resource officer at parkland, is being sued for not going into the building during the shooting.

 

[3855WIN]

Mexico has stringent gun laws.

Juarez had over 100 murders this January.

In 2010, El Paso had 5 murders for the entire year. That same year, Juarez had 3,500.

Must be easy access to guns.

 

[3855WIN]

Here’s a great example of armed citizens standing up to government and winning.

Oregon standoff: All defendants found not guilty

U.S. District Judge Anna J. Brown welcomed Juror 18 to the panel, and urged the newly-reconfigured 12-member jury to start all over, "as if the previous deliberations have never occurred.''

www.oregonlive.com

 

[RockinU]

Both my parents were teachers, my aunt was a teacher, many of of college friends are teachers, most of my parents friends were teachers.

No this is lunacy.

Also the resource officer at parkland, is being sued for not going into the building during the shooting.

My wife is a teacher, and has her license to carry, we're not opposed to her having a right to carry on campus in order to defend her life should the need arise, we are however not in favor of her having a legal responsibility to engage a shooter. There is an obvious difference between a teacher and a police (or resource) officer, their capabilities, training, and what should be expected from them.

This is the second time you've mentioned him being sued, are you of the opinion that he shouldn't be?

 

[RockinU]

Mexico has stringent gun laws.

Juarez had over 100 murders this January.

In 2010, El Paso had 5 murders for the entire year. That same year, Juarez had 3,500.

Must be easy access to guns.

Another example is Brazil...very strict gun laws, however if ranking by sheer number of murders per year, they have 5 of the top 10 cities in the world.

Simply passing laws isn't an anwer.

 

[Panda Bear]

Which laws do you have that you wish were changed.---------handgun restrictions, suppressor restrictions, and others

Why do you think we have these issues and your country doesn't?--------

I never said that, where is that question coming form---we have plenty of problems, and some not much different than yours, others Country specific, as is probably true with all countries. We have this problem, well, we have this problem type conversation. But specifically we have mental health issues that slip through the cracks until they go totally off the reservation and start shooting people, then the noise starts, ban guns, plus--- the parents, the mental health people, the teachers, the CMP should have done more, etc etc etc-------but if they had tried BEFORE the tragedy, then it opens up a different can of worms.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

My wife is a teacher, and has her license to carry, we're not opposed to her having a right to carry on campus in order to defend her life should the need arise, we are however not in favor of her having a legal responsibility to engage a shooter. There is an obvious difference between a teacher and a police (or resource) officer, their capabilities, training, and what should be expected from them.

This is the second time you've mentioned him being sued, are you of the opinion that he shouldn't be?

There are definitely people, like your wife or maybe @Jess who could safely carry, I know quite a few inner city teachers and carrying is the last thing they want legalized. My cousin taught in Brooklyn and the idea just horrifies her.

As far as the parkland guy, I don’t really have an opinion as I haven’t looked at the facts and/or statutes in detail. I raise it as evidence that just because you have someone with a gun on campus doesn’t mean they will do anything.

As numerous people have highlighted new gun regs are probably not going to be effective and would be impossible, in many ways, to implement. The last thing I would want to see is people’s rights curtailed for no net gain, I hate ineffectual laws.

At the same time, I’m not a big fan of the slippery slope arguments nor the eye for an eye justice that many advocate. In all of the cases where a shooter was stopped by another shooter someone still died, ie the shooter. Aside from a few true psychos I think much of the gun violence in this country is due to people in pain that actually don’t want to hurt people, but are lashing out because they don’t feel they have any other recourse.

 

[jake23]

Both my parents were teachers, my aunt was a teacher, many of of college friends are teachers, most of my parents friends were teachers.

No this is lunacy.

Also the resource officer at parkland, is being sued for not going into the building during the shooting.

So since you know, and are related to a lot of teachers you are saying you don’t want them being able to defend themselves? Why is having the ability to defend yourself lunacy? I haven’t heard anyone say that the teachers should be held responsible for the students safety. I also don’t believe anyone is saying that all teachers shall carry in the classroom. But if a teacher wants to carry, why shouldn’t they be allowed to?

I am unclear what you are opposed to.

Do you agree or disagree with the parkland resource officer being sued?

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Interesting. My second question was to to the commonly held belief in the US that our gun epidemic is unique among industrialized nations. Obviously, there is violence all over the developing world. So nothing you said.

I could obviously google, but it’s more interesting to hear from someone who lives there, does Canada have many mass shootings, and or are “assault weapons” primarily used?

- Again no agenda, not trying to prove any point just interested in perspectives different from mine, any weird phrasing is do to my inability to write well.

 

[hank4elk]

Hated the M16 & have no use for these weapons as a hunter or a legal gunowner, personally.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

So since you know, and are related to a lot of teachers you are saying you don’t want them being able to defend themselves? Why is having the ability to defend yourself lunacy? I haven’t heard anyone say that the teachers should be held responsible for the students safety. I also don’t believe anyone is saying that all teachers shall carry in the classroom. But if a teacher wants to carry, why shouldn’t they be allowed to?

Should they be allowed to defend themselves, I guess yes?

I’ve just talked to a ton of educators and they don’t want guns in their school, they don’t want to be in the position to kill a student, and they are uncomfortable or scared of guns.

Also just in terms of student safety like where would you keep the gun, I’m sure most teacher would exercise safety keep it in a locked drawer or on their person, but kids get into everything. Your talking about a room full of 30 10 year olds it’s just not a great idea. It’s just introducing a unnecessary variable into a tough environment.

 

[RockinU]

There are definitely people, like your wife or maybe @Jess who could safely carry, I know quite a few inner city teachers and carrying is the last thing they want legalized. My cousin taught in Brooklyn and the idea just horrifies her.

As far as the parkland guy, I don’t really have an opinion as I haven’t looked at the facts and/or statutes in detail. I raise it as evidence that just because you have someone with a gun on campus doesn’t mean they will do anything.

As numerous people have highlighted new gun regs are probably not going to be effective and would be impossible, in many ways, to implement. The last thing I would want to see is people’s rights curtailed for no net gain, I hate ineffectual laws.

At the same time, I’m not a big fan of the slippery slope arguments nor the eye for an eye justice that many advocate. In all of the cases where a shooter was stopped by another shooter someone still died, ie the shooter. Aside from a few true psychos I think much of the gun violence in this country is due to people in pain that actually don’t want to hurt people, but are lashing out because they don’t feel they have any other recourse.

I agree completely, basically treating the symptoms without addressing the underlying cause is a recipe for failure, and to not recognize that is an even bigger failure.

I keep seeing opposition to the idea of a "slippery slope", and while I agree that on it's own, it's a weak argument, to dismiss the concept out of hand is to not pay attention to lessons learned. During the AWB between 1994-2004 the antis were continuing to push for further restrictions, and if they gain further restrictions now, they will continue to push this time as well. If we give them something that will have no material effect on these tragic events they use to fear monger, they will ask that we keep doing so.

I recognize that somewhere out there might exist a reasonable middle which desires no more than increased safety, and less tragic violence, but make no mistake, those who loudly bang on the table of "gun reform" want us to be as restricted as possible.

 

[Guest member 25165]

Is it the teacher's responsibility to engage in an active shooter situation? Should a teacher be expected to take a bullet for a student? As a teacher, I struggle with these questions.

 

[RockinU]

Hated the M16 & have no use for these weapons as a hunter or a legal gunowner, personally.

And that's completely understandable. While I myself have one that I coyote hunt with, it's not all I coyote hunt with, and not even my favorite, but that has absolutely nothing to do with restricting ownership of them. As I said earlier, what happens when some psycho takes a position on high ground with a scoped rifle and does his worst, and the antis decide that nobody "needs" the ability to shoot distance with a high powered rifle? What happens when they realize that the evil AR-15 rifle boogieman is actually one of the least powerful rifles we have? To think they only have interest in the ones you don't is a mistake.