And the lies continue..

[Straight Arrow]

I have eaten grizzly meat. It's not bad. And it wasn't douched with spicy marinade and smothered in smoke. If grizzlies do again become legal to hunt in Montana, the law should require that hunters salvage the meat.

Why would it be any different than black bear hunting regs?

 

[Ben Lamb]

I think it is more a distrust of what the various state legislatures and governors will direct the Fish and Game departments to do, that is the hold up.

This is just a rant, and not meant to pick on you personally, @406dn


That's the political management issue rearing it's head. If you dislike the current regime, say that they can't do x,y or z because of a,b or c.

It's what people are trying to do in OR, WA, CA & CO by trying to undermine the current governor's credibility on wedge issues.

Luckily for all of us, the law doesn't take that into account. If a state goes south on the regulatory mechanism, then other remedies exist in statute to deal with that through the relisting process.

It is a dangerous and, imo, disingenuous, game to play here. It undermines the faith that people have in anything getting done and further cements the kind of ritualistic narcissism candidates, keyboard commandoes and others play relative to management.

Everyone who says they don't trust the agency to manage has yet to provide a concrete example of where they have done poorly in the Grizzly bear mgt plan, in statute, or in the agency. We get a lot of outside conjecture around personnel issues, politicians making their grandiose statements and claims, yet no actual issuance of legitimate grievances about the direction the state has taken on getting their plans in place, etc.

Goalposts get shifted on wildlife stuff all the time. Right now it's vogue to bash the current administration (and they've made mistakes - no doubt) but this governor, and this FWP administration, have done solid work on grizzly bears.

If we as a nation want to continue to see successes like grizzly bear conservation, or get animals delisted when they deserve to be returned to state management, then we have to accept that even if "our guy" isn't wielding the veto pen, you still work with the people on enacting good policy.

Sitting back and saying "we'll wait for the next democrat, or someone we like" sentences bears to a bad fate as much as it does other species and it drives the wedge deeper between citizens.

The biggest impediment to sound conservation policy is the desire to politicize everything. It just drives everyone deeper into their own camps, and makes getting anything worthwhile done even harder than it is.

 

[MTGomer]

My viewpoint:
grizzly hunting is trophy hunting.
Trophy hunting is good.
Since trophy hunting is good, trophy hunting should happen.
Since trophy hunting should happen, grizzly hunting should happen.
Hunting is conservation. Conservation is Hunting.
hunting protects species, Therefore species worthy of existing should be hunted.
Opposing Hunting, is by default opposition to the conservation of a species.

We should stop apologizing for
“trophy hunting”. It is a good thing. since perception is reality these days, we could rebrand it to a different word, but at the heart of the issue, what trophy hunting is, is nothing to apologize for.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

My viewpoint:
grizzly hunting is trophy hunting.
Trophy hunting is good.
Since trophy hunting is good, trophy hunting should happen.
Since trophy hunting should happen, grizzly hunting should happen.
Hunting is conservation. Conservation is Hunting.
hunting protects species, Therefore species worthy of existing should be hunted.
Opposing Hunting, is by default opposition to the conservation of a species.

We should stop apologizing for
“trophy hunting”. It is a good thing. since perception is reality these days, we could rebrand it to a different word, but at the heart of the issue, what trophy hunting is, is nothing to apologize for.

Sport Hunting? Seems to have worked well for fishing - so much so the pendulum is on the other side to where if a fly fisherperson eats a trout it is often frowned upon.

 

[Bonasababy]

I will gladly take properly cared for black bear meat over elk/moose or deer any day. Well a really young deer might challenge that. Other than it being perhaps more of a challenge due to size, I can't imagine griz or brown bear meat isn't good as well. When I next draw a black permit here, I will intentionally avoid a huge bear unless it's in a spot that's easy to get to. I know I am not alone amongst bear hunters here.

I wonder if every state has wanton waste laws for the meat though? Alaska too? I'd certainly support that but wonder....

 

[TOGIE]

My viewpoint:
grizzly hunting is trophy hunting.
Trophy hunting is good.
Since trophy hunting is good, trophy hunting should happen.
Since trophy hunting should happen, grizzly hunting should happen.
Hunting is conservation. Conservation is Hunting.
hunting protects species, Therefore species worthy of existing should be hunted.
Opposing Hunting, is by default opposition to the conservation of a species.

We should stop apologizing for
“trophy hunting”. It is a good thing. since perception is reality these days, we could rebrand it to a different word, but at the heart of the issue, what trophy hunting is, is nothing to apologize for.

i really think this is warped thinking and as such produces a really really bad defense against a well organized and funded offense.

 

[406dn]

This is just a rant, and not meant to pick on you personally, @406dn


That's the political management issue rearing it's head. If you dislike the current regime, say that they can't do x,y or z because of a,b or c.

It's what people are trying to do in OR, WA, CA & CO by trying to undermine the current governor's credibility on wedge issues that.

Luckily for all of us, the law doesn't take that into account. If a state goes south on the regulatory mechanism, then other remedies exist in statute to deal with that through the relisting process.

It is a dangerous and, imo, disingenuous, game to play here. It undermines the faith that people have in anything getting done and further cements the kind of ritualistic narcissism candidates, keyboard commandoes and others play relative to management.

Everyone who says they don't trust the agency to manage has yet to provide a concrete example of where they have done poorly in the Grizzly bear mgt plan, in statute, or in the agency. We get a lot of outside conjecture around personnel issues, politicians making their grandiose statements and claims, yet no actual issuance of legitimate grievances about the direction the state has taken on getting their plans in place, etc.

Goalposts get shifted on wildlife stuff all the time. Right now it's vogue to bash the current administration (and they've made mistakes - no doubt) but this governor, and this FWP administration, have done solid work on grizzly bears.

If we as a nation want to continue to see successes like grizzly bear conservation, or get animals delisted when they deserve to be returned to state management, then we have to accept that even if "our guy" isn't wielding the veto pen, you still work with the people on enacting good policy.

Sitting back and saying "we'll wait for the next democrat, or someone we like" sentences bears to a bad fate as much as it does other species and it drives the wedge deeper between citizens.

The biggest impediment to sound conservation policy is the desire to politicize everything. It just drives everyone deeper into their own camps, and makes getting anything worthwhile done even harder than it is.

I largely agree with you. Every scientific box concerning recovery has been checked. Grizzly bears are doing better in the lower 48 than they have in over a hundred years. There is no reason other than the political ones, holding up the removal from their threatened status.

I'll refer back to my comment that every decision with them, will immediately end up in court. The groups wanting the bears to remain listed move goal posts as needed. They are quite resourceful in finding a court sympathetic to their position.

I spent enough time in Union leadership to realize that a stalemate is very difficult to change.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I largely agree with you. Every scientific box concerning recovery has been checked. Grizzly bears are doing better in the lower 48 than they have in over a hundred years. There is no reason other than the political ones, holding up the removal from their threatened status.

I'll refer back to my comment that every decision with them, will immediately end up in court. The groups wanting the bears to remain listed move goal posts as needed. They are quite resourceful in finding a court sympathetic to their position.

I spent enough time in Union leadership to realize that a stalemate is very difficult to change.

Thanks for stepping up for Union leadership. That's a lonely job.

And thanks for letting me rant on your post.

 

[MTGomer]

i really think this is warped thinking and as such produces a really really bad defense against a well organized and funded offense.

It’s not what we should use for a PR campaign.

 

[Eric Albus]

I have eaten grizzly meat. It's not bad. And it wasn't douched with spicy marinade and smothered in smoke. If grizzlies do again become legal to hunt in Montana, the law should require that hunters salvage the meat.

If and when it happens, hunters will HAVE to take the meat.

 

[TOGIE]

It’s not what we should use for a PR campaign.

but even repeating that slogan amongst ourselves influences our PR campaigns and how we interact with the public.

i personally don't believe that hunting is conservation and, to me, trophy hunting is a pretty sticky arena and the mindset of the folks who feel genuinely okay with the term are people i'm not so sure really have any business hunting. but i may also define trophy hunting differently than some.

in any event, that's just my opinion.

 

[Dubz337]

Sport Hunting? Seems to have worked well for fishing - so much so the pendulum is on the other side to where if a fly fisherperson eats a trout it is often frowned upon.

Apples and oranges, as the fish is not destroyed while sport fishing. We'd have to hunt with tranqs for it to be a direct comparison.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Apples and oranges, as the fish is not destroyed while sport fishing. We'd have to hunt with tranqs for it to be a direct comparison.

In order to solve this fruit issue, I suggest counting coup as your only way to fill a tag.

 

[Dubz337]

In order to solve this fruit issue, I suggest counting coup as your only way to fill a tag.

I'm already part Native, anytime I come home emptyhanded I just say I was counting coup hunting, and won.

 

[Carnage2011]

Sport Hunting? Seems to have worked well for fishing - so much so the pendulum is on the other side to where if a fly fisherperson eats a trout it is often frowned upon.

Who said anything about sport hunting?

 

[MTGomer]

but even repeating that slogan amongst ourselves influences our PR campaigns and how we interact with the public.

i personally don't believe that hunting is conservation and, to me, trophy hunting is a pretty sticky arena and the mindset of the folks who feel genuinely okay with the term are people i'm not so sure really have any business hunting. but i may also define trophy hunting differently than some.

in any event, that's just my opinion.

I guess I consider Hunting that is not primarily for subsistence as trophy hunting. For example, passing a Whitetail doe in your backyard in Western Montana, on opening morning, so you can travel to Eastern Montana and hunt Mule deer, which then you will pass the first two-point you see so you can hopefully get a four-point - is trophy hunting. All hunting of species such as goats, sheep, and moose is trophy hunting.
The hunting of bears, lions etc, is certainly trophy hunting.

 

[TOGIE]

I guess I consider Hunting that is not primarily for subsistence as trophy hunting. For example, passing a Whitetail doe in your backyard in Western Montana, on opening morning, so you can travel to Eastern Montana and hunt Mule deer, which then you will pass the first two-point you see so you can hopefully get a four-point - is trophy hunting. All hunting of species such as goats, sheep, and moose is trophy hunting.
The hunting of bears, lions etc, is certainly trophy hunting.

i mean yeah, there's a lot of semantics and gradations to what one calls trophy hunting.

i generally think of trophy hunting as killing for the sake of killing - the glory of it. i swear when i look around know far more hunters that throw out oodles of freezer burned meat every year and sit around lusting over the heads on their wall than those that don't. i don't care for those people and i'd frankly prefer it if they weren't hunters at all.

 

[FairWeather]

Write back to the publication with these corrections. The only way to counter misinformation is with factual information.

 

[Benfromalbuquerque]

Quick googlefu on this twerp turned up this, posted to the myfwp.mt site. It looks as if the administration at the time and Covid intervened to stop this man from appointment, but he’s back now.

STATEMENT OF MIKE BADER
INDEPENDENT CONSULTANT
MISSOULA, MONTANA
March 25, 2020

Introduction

“My name is Mike Bader, residing in Missoula, Montana. I am an independent natural resource
consultant and sole proprietor of Ecological Research Services. I sent a letter (attached) to
Governor Bullock requesting that he appoint me to the Technical Advisory Committee so I could
supplement the information you have received from the State and federal agencies with
information from non-agency affiliated scientists with vast expertise and experience with grizzly
bears. Unfortunately, I was not provided the courtesy of a reply…”