Alaska Public Lands Issues - ANWR and Pebble

[COEngineer]

I received an e-mail from BHA with links to comment on these two issues. Only takes a few seconds:

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/take_action?e=74ac164acba891ae30cb4c5da2309b84&utm_source=backcountryhunters&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=alaska_alert_pebble_anwr&n=7#/40

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/take_action?e=74ac164acba891ae30cb4c5da2309b84&utm_source=backcountryhunters&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=alaska_alert_pebble_anwr&n=10#/42

This is the easiest way to be involved in the political process.

 

[Bambistew]

Please explain how Pebble is a "public" lands issue near and dear to BHA? It's on State land, and much of the area is Native owned. The State specially selected the area at statehood for mineral development, aka revenue potential for a state with little else. Also it's not the "head waters" of Bristol. It's near the headwaters of one of a dozen rivers the flow into Bristol. Worst case it would have impacted 10% of the run, and that would have been a total flush of a huge amount of impacted water (something eliminated from the current mine plan sent to the USACE that you want us to diligently comment on)... which is funny because it had about a 10000% less chance of happening than a total area wide volcano eruption and total Bristol fish killer. But hey, when you have a multi billion dollar fishing empire from Washington fighting against it, one that pays just enough to the state to cover it's cost to operate, we have to believe the propaganda. Its those greedy miners who rape and pillage. Not the fisherman...

Please point out a fishery that has been destroyed by modern mining... I can list dozen destroyed by commercial fishing In the last few decades. Sooner or later climate change will catch up to Bristol, and the fish will be gone.

The caribou picture in your link for ANWAR is fitting to the same propaganda... bit when no one actually visits or ever hunts there, you have to make something up. The closest mountain, basically any elevation relief of 100 feet is 70-80 miles away. The drill site is tiny compared to the overall refuge, and much of the drilling would likely be done from offshore constructed islands, i.e. not caribou habitat. Also the caribou do just fine on the slope in and around the current opperations.

I'm sure more than one BHA has used the oil infrastructure to kill a caribou i.e. anything along the Haul Road, including the airport at Deadhorse... wouldn't it be ironic if the guy in the picture was one of them? . I know of a bunch of BHA hunters who have used the infrastructure. Irony to the nth. Save it, save it, save it... but if it is developed we'll use it and then blog about it. Haha

I'm sure I'll get lynched. Haha

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Not an expert at all on the issue but I was under the impression that the ore around the area was incredibly low grade and that in order to be profitable pebble would have to be a giant open pit mine... which would effect more than just the fishing.


"Please point out a fishery that has been destroyed by modern mining... I can list dozen destroyed by commercial fishing In the last few decades. Sooner or later climate change will catch up to Bristol, and the fish will be gone."

Bambi, totally agree with the later part of this, but is there another mine near a major commercial fishery...kinda a red herring? Looking at the Berkeley Pitt and the Gold King Mine spill I can't say I'm excited to have another giant pit mine around to deal with.

 

[Irrelevant]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...clear-3-years-after-mining-disaster-1.4236469

Results are still out on the impacts to the ~1,000,000 sockeye that spawn in lake Quesnel.

Risk vs reward. Some view the inevitable failure as an acceptable cost for the resources extracted, others don't. And while we can't do anything about a disastrous volcanic eruption we theoretically have some say in this.

The current proposal from Pebble Partnership would be for a 1.1 bil tons of tailings or approximately 92x bigger than Mt Polley.

 

[utahminer]

Looking at the Berkeley Pitt and the Gold King Mine spill I can't say I'm excited to have another giant pit mine around to deal with.

Not trying to pick a fight but we REALLY have to stop using these as examples. These are mines that were built, operated and "closed" long before modern mining methods. This is similar to anti-hunters using the buffalo trade and extinction of the passenger pigeon against hunters.

As a hunter, I think there is a lot of value in BHA, but as a miner and someone that specializes in mine closure and reclamation, they get a lot wrong. I have been meaning to reach out their leadership and see if we could have dinner or a quick meeting to discuss some of the disconnects. I would really like to reach some common ground with BHA (recognizing that I am a member) and the mining community. We as sportsman can't fight all mine development but continue to drive 4x4s and take up more than our fair share of resources that mines produce. Very little in this world is recycled (we all need to do better, me included) and if it is not grown it's mined.

Now, is Pebble a mine that needs to go forward? I'm not sure. It's a pretty delicate ecosystem and it's not an easy environment to mine. Can it be managed if the right company is involved? Yes. Have the politics and pressure pushed those companies away from Pebble? Yes.

 

[BWALKER77]

Not trying to pick a fight but we REALLY have to stop using these as examples. These are mines that were built, operated and "closed" long before modern mining methods. This is similar to anti-hunters using the buffalo trade extinction of the passenger pigeon against hunters.

As a hunter, I think there is a lot of value in BHA, but as a mine and someone that specializes in mine closure and reclamation, they get a lot wrong. I have been meaning to reach out their leadership and see if we could have dinner or a quick meeting to discuss some of the disconnects. We as sportsman can't fight all mine development but continue to drive 4x4s and take up more than our fair share of resources that the mine's produce. Very little in this world is recycled (we all need to do better, me included) and if it is not grown it's mined.

Now, is Pebble a mine that needs to go forward? I'm not sure. It's a pretty delicate ecosystem and it's not an easy environment to mine. Can it be managed if the right company is involved? Yes. Have the politics and pressure pushed those companies away from Pebble? Yes.

What this guy said.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Not trying to pick a fight but we REALLY have to stop using these as examples. These are mines that were built, operated and "closed" long before modern mining methods. This is similar to anti-hunters using the buffalo trade and extinction of the passenger pigeon against hunters.

As a hunter, I think there is a lot of value in BHA, but as a miner and someone that specializes in mine closure and reclamation, they get a lot wrong. I have been meaning to reach out their leadership and see if we could have dinner or a quick meeting to discuss some of the disconnects. I would really like to reach some common ground with BHA (recognizing that I am a member) and the mining community. We as sportsman can't fight all mine development but continue to drive 4x4s and take up more than our fair share of resources that mines produce. Very little in this world is recycled (we all need to do better, me included) and if it is not grown it's mined.

Now, is Pebble a mine that needs to go forward? I'm not sure. It's a pretty delicate ecosystem and it's not an easy environment to mine. Can it be managed if the right company is involved? Yes. Have the politics and pressure pushed those companies away from Pebble? Yes.

I have worked my entire career in Oil & Gas so I'm not anti-extraction by any means and I have no experience in the mining industry.

That being said I have been involved in/have knowledge of numerous clean up projects in both the OG industry and the mining industry as both an operator and as part river quality monitoring groups, so when someone says 'modern methods' and insinuates there will little environmental impact I kinda feel like they are trying to piss down my neck and tell me it's raining.

I admit this is a gut reaction and does not represent an informed opinion about this specific project, and yes those are very old mines. Do you have a link to the mine proposal, I would be curious to see how pebble is different from these older mines most of my google searches have compared this project to the Grasberg mine, which has been a huge environmental problem, is this an unfair comparison?

I think you are on the right tract with your dinner idea.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

I admit this is a gut reaction and does not represent an informed opinion about this specific project, and yes those are very old mines. Do you have a link to the mine proposal, I would be curious to see how pebble is different from these older mines most of my google searches have compared this project to the Grasberg mine, which has been a huge environmental problem, is this an unfair comparison?

Comparing Pebble to Grasberg is an unfair comparison in regards to how Pebble is planning to handle tailings. Grasberg is one of only maybe 2 or 3 large and medium scale mines that directly dump tailings into a river system. The Indonesian government allowed them to permit the mine this way some 20 some odd years ago. The others that operate this way are also in Indonesia or New Guinea. No other countries allow this practice. Most large scale mining companies have stated that regardless they would not handle tailings this way in todays day and age. Pebble will have sealed impoundments to contain waste.

I am not informed enough to say whether Pebble is a good idea or not. However, it will not be another Grasberg. I doubt any mine in the future will compare to Grasberg.

 

[COEngineer]

Good discussion guys.

Bambistew, you said,

Also it's not the "head waters" of Bristol. It's near the headwaters of one of a dozen rivers the flow into Bristol. Worst case it would have impacted 10% of the run...

I fail to see how the headwaters of a river that flows into Bristol is not the headwaters or Bristol. Can you clarify? Also, if the tailing pond is breached and it washes down one river, it will all get mixed in the bay and affect 100% of the rivers that have mouths in the bay, right? Salmon swimming up any one of the rivers have to swim through the bay first. Or am I missing something?

I am not a geologist, but the Pacific Rim is one of the most active earthquake zones(?) in the world, right? It stands to reason that any dam (for the tailing pond) in the area would be prone to failure during an earthquake. And the tailing pond dam is going to be maintained/monitored FOREVER?! The tailings don't get better over time, right? So it's a matter of when, not if, the dam fails (10, 100, 1000 years from now). Personally, I would like to be done with creating more environmental disasters-in-the-making that some future generation will be stuck dealing with.

utahminer, I think that would be great if you had a meeting with BHA leaders. If you do, please take notes and let us know how it goes. I know I could learn a lot.

 

[utahminer]

I have worked my entire career in Oil & Gas so I'm not anti-extraction by any means and I have no experience in the mining industry.

That being said I have been involved in/have knowledge of numerous clean up projects in both the OG industry and the mining industry as both an operator and as part river quality monitoring groups, so when someone says 'modern methods' and insinuates there will little environmental impact I kinda feel like they are trying to piss down my neck and tell me it's raining.

I admit this is a gut reaction and does not represent an informed opinion about this specific project, and yes those are very old mines. Do you have a link to the mine proposal, I would be curious to see how pebble is different from these older mines most of my google searches have compared this project to the Grasberg mine, which has been a huge environmental problem, is this an unfair comparison?

I think you are on the right tract with your dinner idea.

Do accidents happen, yes (e.g. Mt Polley, Samarco...). Hence, why I'm not sure where I sit on the development of Pebble. Its a fragile environment and there are MANY DETAILS that I dont know to have an educated opinion. I think both sides (those opposed and those in favor) have not done a good job of presenting facts. That being said there have been HUGE changes in the industry from those two incidents. Mining accidents are kind of like airplane crashes. If one happens the whole world hears about it, but little is said about the reast of the time when things are handled properly. There is so much work that goes into preventing environmental impact that unless you live it on daily basis its hard to understand.

Now, modern mining methods and management are a far cry from the unlined heap leaching, end dumping and lack of closure planning that took place at the historic mines mentioned above. Little was known of acid based accounting when the Berkley pit was created and even less was done to try to prevent or control the creation of ARD. Also, having worked in both the OG industry and in mining there is a pretty big difference between the regulations of the two. I am curious of the mining related incidents that you mentioned. It appears that we live pretty close to one another. Please shoot me a PM.

Comparing Pebble to Grasberg is an unfair comparison in regards to how Pebble is planning to handle tailings. Grasberg is one of only maybe 2 or 3 large and medium scale mines that directly dump tailings into a river system. The Indonesian government allowed them to permit the mine this way some 20 some odd years ago. The others that operate this way are also in Indonesia or New Guinea. No other countries allow this practice. Most large scale mining companies have stated that regardless they would not handle tailings this way in todays day and age. Pebble will have sealed impoundments to contain waste.

I am not informed enough to say whether Pebble is a good idea or not. However, it will not be another Grasberg. I doubt any mine in the future will compare to Grasberg.

Mulecreek, thank you. I have been tied up today and have been meaning to write the exact same thing. I have a handful of friends that have worked ar Grasberg and business in Indonesia is MUCH different than business in the United States. Also, Freeport, who owns Grasberg, could have cared less about its social license to operate in other parts of the world until very recently when the Indonsian governemnt really started to flex its muscles and push out the mining companies.

 

[utahminer]

Good discussion guys.
I am not a geologist, but the Pacific Rim is one of the most active earthquake zones(?) in the world, right? It stands to reason that any dam (for the tailing pond) in the area would be prone to failure during an earthquake. And the tailing pond dam is going to be maintained/monitored FOREVER?! The tailings don't get better over time, right? So it's a matter of when, not if, the dam fails (10, 100, 1000 years from now). Personally, I would like to be done with creating more environmental disasters-in-the-making that some future generation will be stuck dealing with.

utahminer, I think that would be great if you had a meeting with BHA leaders. If you do, please take notes and let us know how it goes. I know I could learn a lot.

COengineer I keep meaning to ask which field of engineering.

Normally, modern tailings impoundments are designed with an MCE (Maximum credible earthquake) in mind. I can't imagine that such a controversial project in such a sensitive area would be permitted without the tailings impoundment being designed to withstand an MCE. I'm not a geologist, so I might get some of the details wrong, but I have been involved as MCE criteria was developed/revised and its dependent the geotechnical information of the immediate area. To answer your questions about tailings dam maintenance, it is highly likely that the tailngs dam at Pebble with require maintenance in perpituity. Its a sulfide ore body which will create acid from both the waste rock and the tailings impoundment. The acid production of the impoundment will decrease over time but it is a very slow process and you can expect that water treatment of the tailings seepage will be required well in to the future. Its an ugly truth, but reality when such an ore body is developed. How does this differ from Berkley? Today we understand acidgenration and can make decisions to decrease the production and exposure to the environment. A silver bullet to eliminate the risk does not exist but it can be managed, although it wont be easy in that location and environment.