.300 Win Mag vs 6.5 Creedmoor

[MTLabrador]

I love my .300 and I’ll probably buy a 6.5 eventually. The elk my friends have killed with their 6.5s aren’t any less dead than the elk I’ve killed with my .300.

There’s a lot of upside to low recoil and burning less powder.

 

[Misguided]

Mesa in a win mag sounds like an awesome combo!

 

[ImBillT]

+1 - better options than 300WM, no need for mag when hunting elk. .270Win, .280Rem, 280AI, 7mm08, 30-06, .308Win are all well balanced choices. If you stick with the factory Mesa, then 7mm08, and .308 are solid choices. If you have to go mag then I prefer the 7RM as I like the 7mm bullet options over the .30.

Totally on board with the whole post except for ONE THING. If you’re gonna say 7-08, then what’s wrong with the 6.5CM? I’m just guessing, but the percentage of 7-08 shooters shooting a 140gr bullet or lighter has to be very very high, and a guy hunting with a 6.5CM is very frequently also shooting a 140gr bullet at a similar velocity, but the 6.5mm bullet will have a higher SD which is better for penetration. If you can recommend a 7-08 for elk(without caveats for increased bullet weight above the standard), you have to recommend a 6.5CM with equal enthusiasm if you’re being honest.

The only 6.5CM I ever owned got the barrel sold before I ever shot it.

 

[std7mag]

Totally on board with the whole post except for ONE THING. If you’re gonna say 7-08, then what’s wrong with the 6.5CM? I’m just guessing, but the percentage of 7-08 shooters shooting a 140gr bullet or lighter has to be very very high, and a guy hunting with a 6.5CM is very frequently also shooting a 140gr bullet at a similar velocity, but the 6.5mm bullet will have a higher SD which is better for penetration. If you can recommend a 7-08 for elk(without caveats for increased bullet weight above the standard), you have to recommend a 6.5CM with equal enthusiasm if you’re being honest.

The only 6.5CM I ever owned got the barrel sold before I ever shot it.

Nope!
Uh huh!
Ain't gonna do it!!

I would rather sell all my gun gear and take up golf!!

Foo foo manbun as good as a 7mm....
Never heard such nonsense in all my days!!

Dang Hippies!!

 

[Tom_Nguyen]

300 WM is my favorite!

 

[Benjamins]

I'm surprised how many people put soooo much emphasis on recoil. I have a tikka t3x superlight in 300 WM. Does it kick? Sure. Is it something that even crosses my mind when I'm shooting at a critter? Never. Not saying I want to go shoot up prairie dogs all day with it but for shooting a box of shells a few times a year to practice and then a shot or two at game I think a 300 is the bees knees. I guess full disclosure, I'm a much bigger than average guy, I suppose that factors in to things. Probably wouldn't start a kid shooting it.

 

[ImBillT]

Nope!
Uh huh!
Ain't gonna do it!!

I would rather sell all my gun gear and take up golf!!

Foo foo manbun as good as a 7mm....
Never heard such nonsense in all my days!!

Dang Hippies!!

Not any 7mm. A 7-08, without including a suggestion to use a 168gr+ bullet. The most common loads in both cartridges are 140gr bullets at reasonably similar velocities, but A) the 6.5mm bullet will have a penetration advantage(assuming similar construction) due to higher SD, B) less wind drift due to higher BC, and C) will maintain a higher velocity downrange due to a higher BC.

The above advantages are small. Both cartridges are reasonably similar in terms of performance. The point is that the 6.5CM is at absolutely no disadvantage to the 7-08 if we’re talking about 140gr bullets in each, and those are quite standard in factory ammo.

The same can be said of a 260Rem.

If you include specific instructions of using a bullet heavier than 140gr, then the 7-08 gains a lot of ground. You can load up to a 180gr VLD at a standard mag length of 2.800”, and can load up to the 195EOL in certain AICS pattern mags that accept up to 2.950” with zero modification to your action. A 6.5CM cannot measure up to that.

I’d rather have none of the above. Standard S/A cartridges should be abandoned above 6mm.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Not any 7mm. A 7-08, without including a suggestion to use a 168gr+ bullet. The most common loads in both cartridges are 140gr bullets at reasonably similar velocities, but A) the 6.5mm bullet will have a penetration advantage(assuming similar construction) due to higher SD, B) less wind drift due to higher BC, and C) will maintain a higher velocity downrange due to a higher BC.

The above advantages are small. Both cartridges are reasonably similar in terms of performance. The point is that the 6.5CM is at absolutely no disadvantage to the 7-08 if we’re talking about 140gr bullets in each, and those are quite standard in factory ammo.

The same can be said of a 260Rem.

If you include specific instructions of using a bullet heavier than 140gr, then the 7-08 gains a lot of ground. You can load up to a 180gr VLD at a standard mag length of 2.800”, and can load up to the 195EOL in certain AICS pattern mags that accept up to 2.950” with zero modification to your action. A 6.5CM cannot measure up to that.

I’d rather have none of the above. Standard S/A cartridges should be abandoned above 6mm.

We're pickin fly $hit out of chili here but a 7-08 should have a slight edge over a Creedmoor still on bigger animals. It is a bigger case and larger bore so 140 to 140, the velocity will not be the same. One example is Hornady precision hunter 7/08 150 gr has a higher velocity than 143 creedmoor and close enough in BC/SD etc.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Totally on board with the whole post except for ONE THING. If you’re gonna say 7-08, then what’s wrong with the 6.5CM? I’m just guessing, but the percentage of 7-08 shooters shooting a 140gr bullet or lighter has to be very very high, and a guy hunting with a 6.5CM is very frequently also shooting a 140gr bullet at a similar velocity, but the 6.5mm bullet will have a higher SD which is better for penetration. If you can recommend a 7-08 for elk(without caveats for increased bullet weight above the standard), you have to recommend a 6.5CM with equal enthusiasm if you’re being honest.

The only 6.5CM I ever owned got the barrel sold before I ever shot it.

I am surprised you picked this comment to drill into - I figured you'd be all over the 2 guys that claim literal quarter-moa accuracy with hunting rifles.

As for 6.5CM vs 7mm08 - I agree they are close but one has to draw a line somewhere or you get the "hey if a 6.5cm can do it what about .243Win - I know a guy who kills elk every season with .243 Win, hey anything a .243Win can hunt a 6CM can hunt, hey in Canada they shoot polar bears with .223Rem, etc., ad naseam).

So I arbitrarily drew the line at 7mm08. Under 300y in the field (where 90% of hunters should stay frankly) the BC advantage of the manbun does not overcome the heavier bullet and more powder of the 7mm08 shooting the bullets I would use to hunt.

You will see on this old post of mine (https://www.hunttalk.com/threads/for-rockinu-common-cartridge-choices.291271/) that both 6.5cm and 300wm are common elk cartridges - but on the bookends. If I was looking for "one do all light weight rifle" I would not take something on the ends - I would go for the solid middle. I think 280AI is a perfect compromise for a NA do-all big game cartridge if you handload but OP didn't say he handloaded and the Mesa he wants doesn't come factory in this chambering. Life is trade-offs. For me the 6.5cm sweet-spot is long-ish range pronghorn and mule deer and range work. It will work for elk, but wouldn't be my recommendation.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Standard S/A cartridges should be abandoned above 6mm.

A ridiculous take. The .308Win is a great hunting cartridge in short action. If I had to shoot readily available factory hunting ammo and could only have one rifle (oh lord I pray it does not come to this ) .308Win would probably be my top pick.

 

[ImBillT]

A ridiculous take. The .308Win is a great hunting cartridge in short action. If I had to shoot readily available factory hunting ammo and could only have one rifle (oh lord I pray it does not come to this ) .308Win would probably be my top pick.

I’d rather have 60gr+ H20 capacity in a 6.5mm, 66gr+ in a 7mm, and although a have an illogical aversion to magnums, by the time you’re at 30cal magnums start looking pretty reasonable. I built an ‘06AI this fall as a last minute backup because my dad had a barrel laying around and some does fell in my lap. Performance over a chronograph surprised in spite of only being about 72gr H2O, was flirting with magnum performance.

I’ve probably shot a 308Win more than anything other than a 22lr. I’ve killed a few whitetails and mule deer, and carried one on a few elk hunts. Still, with 190s the trajectory is anemic, and with 155s or 168s, I’d rather they were coming from a 6.5mm or 7mm. If all I had was a 308Win, I’d be fine, BUT If I got to choose one cartridge in each caliber, a 308Win would not even be on my radar.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I’d rather have 60gr+ H20 capacity in a 6.5mm, 66gr+ in a 7mm, and although a have an illogical aversion to magnums, by the time you’re at 30cal magnums start looking pretty reasonable. I built an ‘06AI this fall as a last minute backup because my dad had a barrel laying around and some does fell in my lap. Performance over a chronograph surprised in spite of only being about 72gr H2O, was flirting with magnum performance.

I’ve probably shot a 308Win more than anything other than a 22lr. I’ve killed a few whitetails and mule deer, and carried one on a few elk hunts. Still, with 190s the trajectory is anemic, and with 155s or 168s, I’d rather they were coming from a 6.5mm or 7mm. If all I had was a 308Win, I’d be fine, BUT If I got to choose one cartridge in each caliber, a 308Win would not even be on my radar.

What is your favorite wasn't really the point - it was your reference of abandoning short action above 6mm for hunting. Which I think you would agree is a huge overstatement.

Also, most hunters don't need to shoot super long, super heavy for caliber bullets to be highly effective. I know you like them, just like some like their RUMs, but they are a niche choice for the discerning hobbyist, not a must-have hunting tool for the average joe.

 

[tzone]

I am looking at buying a mountain rifle for all of my out west hunts. I am probably going to buy a Christensen Arms Mesa. But, I was wanting to know should I buy it in .300 Win Mag or 6.5 Creedmoor? Thank you for all knowledge and wisdom!

What are you hunting and how far do you plan on shooting what you're hunting?

My pick would be 6.5 because it's a hellova lot easier to find ammo.

 

[Hammsolo]

Nope!
Uh huh!
Ain't gonna do it!!

I would rather sell all my gun gear and take up golf!!

Foo foo manbun as good as a 7mm....
Never heard such nonsense in all my days!!

Dang Hippies!!

I find the 7mm-08 talk hilarious on here. It has arisen with the 6.5cm. Why? That’s for you to ponder. I love both rounds. I chose the 6.5 due to adoption by the military, availability of ammo, availability in the rifle I wanted, and inherent accuracy. Shoot, my hardware store carries 6.5cm now… Don’t get me wrong, in a blind shoot test you probably couldn’t tell a difference between it and the 08.

The real question is, “What can you shoot accurately?” My opinion is that if you want to be a “one gun guy,” and can accurately shoot it, I’d go 300. You can confidently hunt anything in NA, and it’s not overkill.

 

[tzone]

Lots of indecision

That's OK.

 

[ImBillT]

What is your favorite wasn't really the point - it was your reference of abandoning short action above 6mm for hunting. Which I think you would agree is a huge overstatement.

Also, most hunters don't need to shoot super long, super heavy for caliber bullets to be highly effective. I know you like them, just like some like their RUMs, but they are a niche choice for the discerning hobbyist, not a must-have hunting tool for the average joe.

I wasn’t referring to a particular cartridge in terms of a favorite, I was referring more to how much performance is being left on the table. I also didn’t mean that the rifle in your hands should be abandoned, but rather if one was starting from scratch and choosing a direction to go, if you’re going over 6mm, I would not be considering a cartridge as small as a 308Win or 30TC as the parent. Again, not saying that rifle that you own should be abandoned for hunting. I’m saying that if you’re starting from square one, and want something larger than 6mm, the short action cartridges(perhaps barring a few short magnums) should be off the table.

If I’m picking a new cartridge, I’m not going to choose something under gassed. A 6.5x55 or 6.5-284 is not extreme, and neither is a 280Rem. A 140gr 6.5mm or 168gr 7mm are not super long and super heavy for caliber. From a performance standpoint, there is a lot to be gained by going a little bigger than what fits in a 700 S/A once you cross 6mm.

Obviously in this very thread, where a guy has a 700 S/A that he wants to make use of, I’ve happily supported the use of a 7-08 with 140-168gr bullets. On the other hand, if you said “I want to build a 7mm rifle, what should I buy?” I’d recommend a 280AI, but wouldn’t totally balk at a 280Rem, 7x64, some of the smaller 7mm magnums, or even a 7x57AI, and in all cases, the 7SAUM is the only one I’d consider on a 700 S/A. If the question was “what should I put on my M98, then a 6mm Rem is FANTASTIC, a 6.5x55 or 6.5x57 are FANTASTIC, and a 6.5Rob isn’t far behind. A 7x57 is a little under gassed, BUT in an M98(or even M48) where it can use a longer throat than in a 700 S/A, it will absolutely handle heavy bullets better than a 7-08, and of course, in a non-commercial Mauser, I’m always going to have a strong preference for a Mauser case.

If I was a firearms manufacturer, I would most likely not offer any S/A chamberings larger than 6mm. Market forces might dictate otherwise, but from a performance standpoint there is not really any justification for doing so.

Soooooo no, I didn’t specify that I was referring to performance, however, that’s what I meant, and yes from a performance standpoint, I stand by that. And no, it doesn’t require extremes to meaningfully exceed the performance of a 6.5CM, 7-08, or 308Win. Yeah you’re right that I wouldn’t abandon a gun that I had because it didn’t perfectly match some criteria, and yes, you’re right that there are hunting conditions where a ballistically high performing cartridge really isn’t meaningful. In dense woods and brush like most of the East, the difference between a 308Win shooting a 180gr round nose and a 300mag shooting a 220gr round nose would be fairly small.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I wasn’t referring to a particular cartridge in terms of a favorite, I was referring more to how much performance is being left on the table. I also didn’t mean that the rifle in your hands should be abandoned, but rather if one was starting from scratch and choosing a direction to go, S/A if you’re going over 6mm, I would not be considering a cartridge as small as a 308Win or 30TC as the parent.

If I’m picking a new cartridge, I’m not going to choose something under gassed. A 6.5x55 or 6.5-284 is not extreme, and neither is a 280Rem. A 140gr 6.5mm or 168gr 7mm are not super long and super heavy for caliber. From a performance standpoint, there is a lot to be gained by going a little bigger than what fits in a 700 S/A once you cross 6mm.

Obviously in this very thread, where a guy has a 700 S/A that he wants to make use of, I’ve happily supported the use of a 7-08 with 140-168gr bullets. On the other hand, if you said “I want to build a 7mm rifle, what should I buy?” I’d recommend a 280AI, but wouldn’t totally balk at a 280Rem, 7x64, some of the smaller 7mm magnums, or even a 7x57AI, and in all cases, the 7SAUM is the only one I’d consider on a 700 S/A. If the question was “what should I put on my M98, then a 6mm Rem is FANTASTIC, a 6.5x55 or 6.5x57 are FANTASTIC, and a 6.5Rob isn’t far behind. A 7x57 is a little under gassed, BUT in an M98(or even M48) where it can use a longer throat than in a 700 S/A, it will absolutely handle heavy bullets better than a 7-08, and of course, in a non-commercial Mauser, I’m always going to have a strong preference for a Mauser case.

If I was a firearms manufacturer, I would most likely not offer any S/A chamberings larger than 6mm. Market forces might dictate otherwise, but from a performance standpoint there is not really any justification for doing so.

Soooooo no, I didn’t specify that I was referring to performance, however, that’s what I meant, and yes from a performance standpoint, I stand by that. And no, it doesn’t require extremes to meaningfully exceed the performance of a 6.5CM, 7-08, or 308Win. Yeah you’re right that I wouldn’t abandon a gun that I had because it didn’t perfectly match some criteria, and yes, you’re right that there are hunting conditions where a ballistically high performing cartridge really isn’t meaningful. In dense woods and brush like most of the East, the difference between a 308Win shooting a 180gr round nose and a 300mag shooting a 220gr round nose would be fairly small.

Good post, but I am still waiting for you to take on those wildly throwing around "quarter MOA" claims for their hunting rifles

 

[ImBillT]

Good post, but I am still waiting for you to take on those wildly throwing around "quarter MOA" claims for their hunting rifles

I was skimming and clearly missed those, but I do have a 1/4MOA hunting rifle.

After backing up, I only saw one such claim. In his defense, he claimed he was shooting a Tikka, which at least has a good chance of being more accurate than most factory rifles. In his condemnation, he seemed to claim that it would shoot ANYTHING that well. Hmmm…nope.

 

[ImBillT]

We're pickin fly $hit out of chili here but a 7-08 should have a slight edge over a Creedmoor still on bigger animals. It is a bigger case and larger bore so 140 to 140, the velocity will not be the same. One example is Hornady precision hunter 7/08 150 gr has a higher velocity than 143 creedmoor and close enough in BC/SD etc.

SAAMI spec velocity difference is 155fps at the muzzle. Not a huge difference and the SD advantage of the 6.5mm will help with penetration. The velocity difference decreases fairly quickly after the bullet leaves the muzzle, making the difference between the two even more meaningless, and by 500yds the 6.5mm bullet is traveling faster than the 7mm. At the muzzle are you telling me that the animal will be less dead if you shot it with a 6.5CM? That’s where the difference will be the largest.

I’m not making the case that the 6.5CM is the clear winner. I’m making the case that if you recommend a 7-08, without specifying the use of 168gr or heavier bullets, then you should equally include the 6.5CM.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I was skimming and clearly missed those, but I do have a 1/4MOA hunting rifle.

I don't doubt YOU do. But MOA is like grade inflation. 10 years ago folks all bragged on 1 MOA, 5 years ago it was sub 1MOA, 2 years ago it was half MOA, and now quarter MOA gets thrown out routinely. I know rifles and ammo have gotten better, but I just don't buy the "grade inflation". To me, believable MOA is the average of five 5-shot groups. No shots are removed unless you legit called flier at the time of trigger pull. No "the third round is always a flier so I removed it" bs. My guess is quarter MOA factory ammo, factory rifle claims would be quite rare under decent rigor. With .30cal bullets you are talking ragged holes, not even cloverleaves, at 100yds.