WY preference point deminishing returns?

[Bowhuntrben]

If I had the ability to hunt multiple states and multiple species every year and knowing what I know now, I would say gaining too many points is a waste of time and money. I would burn them as quickly as I could since there are plenty of low point units that can be great hunts. In my case, however, I am very limited in the number of hunts I can do...one per year at most...and I don't always have the tag since my dad and I usually only get one tag between the two of us. As a result, I have accumulated quite a few points in multiple states since I just haven't had time to use them.

 

[sdkhunter]

I also think where people get off track is they don’t do the research before jumping in... Many of us have spent 100’s of hours researching various states, their draw processes, etc. They can take effort to get the hang of and it’s not hard to see all the misinformation being spewed by various publications - which goes from misleading to just incorrect.... There are tags and states that with the current processes/quotas aren’t worth it for a NR to apply for - but most of the publications and DNR sites aren’t going to say that - you have to determine what’s feasible for yourself based on your goals, budget, etc. I build in half the states I used too but I focus on what’s important to me, realistic to eventually draw, and what gets me the most bang for my buck. I save enough on nonrefundable tag fees (compared to years past) every year now that it covers my elk tag or out an out of state whitetail hunt - wherever I’m lucky enough to hunt.

 

[Walkathon]

I only buy points in states where I have a firm grasp on the point system, tag allocation system etc....I think WY has a decent system with the majority of tags being allocated to point holders, and still giving people with 0 points a chance in the random portion of the draw. Like others have mentioned, I have a definite plan when I start apply and I take point creep into consideration when making my plans and investing $'s in points.

 

[ida homer]

But more and more I am starting to think their are big bulls in many OTC and general hunt units and I just need to scout more.

Idaho is like this, IMO. You’ll read many of threads on here about guys drawing 40, 45, 46 and even 54 complaining about the lack of top end bulls.

But it seems we’ll see 1 or 2 330 type bulls in OTC units every year. The terrain is just much less friendly than the nice flat lodgepole/sage front country that makes up the glory units.

Here’s a picture of me chasing a respectable mature bull this year with a tag that’s easy to get. Zoom in dead center.

To me, it seems the glory tags get you a slightly better age class but more huntable terrain, whether that be easier glassing or less brush.

I’m a real estate appraiser, so I walk into about 7-10 strangers‘ homes each week. I see some giant bulls killed by some old timers, I always get the story. 80-90% of them are OTC it seems.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Idaho is like this, IMO. You’ll read many of threads on here about guys drawing 40, 45, 46 and even 54 complaining about the lack of top end bulls.

But it seems we’ll see 1 or 2 330 type bulls in OTC units every year. The terrain is just much less friendly than the nice flat lodgepole/sage front country that makes up the glory units.

Here’s a picture of me chasing a respectable mature bull this year with a tag that’s easy to get. Zoom in dead center.

To me, it seems the glory tags get you a slightly better age class but more huntable terrain, whether that be easier glassing or less brush.

I’m a real estate appraiser, so I walk into about 7-10 strangers‘ homes each week. I see some giant bulls killed by some old timers, I always get the story. 80-90% of them are OTC it seems.

100% agree, my BIL shot a bigger bull on an OTC archery tag in Colorado than he did in unit 10 after hunting 20 days, Unit 10 takes a resident 19 points. That fact alone is why I don't even try to play the points game.

 

[----]

I love threads like this.

The quality of some of the hunts I've had in units that take a truckload of points is truly mind boggling. Yes, OTC hunts do tend to crank out some of the biggest animals, but running around a giant chunk of public land with only a handful of other tagholders and tons of animals is stupid fun.

 

[Mallardsx2]

Interesting viewpoints on this thread for sure. Cant say I disagree with anyone really. All of you have valid points.

I personally do apply for every one of my points with an idea of what I will do with the exception of North Dakota because the draw odds for the top units are so bad....(I will save these for when I am an old man and likely be disappointed but who knows lol)

Guys that apply for points with no intention of using them does seem kinda silly though. But if they never use them it doesn't hurt the point creep and thats on them.
You need to have realistic expectations when applying.

I have multiple points in multiple states and I am not sure from year to year what hunt I will go on. But I have a "plan" for all of my points. I even have plans for my Georgia HOG, DEER, State Park DEER, TURKEY, ALLIGATOR, DOVE, and WATERFOWL points (Which are free by the way...you dont get run through the ringer buying them...)

Wyoming is nice because there is always the random chance of drawing. Sometimes I wish they would just take that away to get the point holders through the gauntlet. Other times I am glad to have the chance. Since I hunt multiple states I wish they would just do away with it so I have a better idea of what I will be doing 100% for that year.

Plans all depend on your PTO from work, what buddies can go on what hunts and when, and your financial situation.

Currently I have enough points to hunt one time a year in a 7 point or above unit for any species and up for the rest of my life. BUT that 7 point unit turns into a 7.5 point unit next year etc etc. So what am I really doing? My new plan involves hunting an OTC unit (normally riddled with knuckleheads who have no idea what they are doing) every other year and building my points all while enjoying the outdoors.

Its all in what a guy wants to do. And when you add in other people into your plan things really go to crap fast.

Maybe I will draw a leftover/returned tag or a random tag somewhere one of these years as well. Ya just never know.

Honestly, my take on the situation is that the hunting will only get better with so many people buying points because the majority of the guys buying points have never stepped foot in the unit they intend to hunt. That seperates hunters from good hunters and more mature animals will survive because of the "New hunters" being pretty unsuccessful on having prior knowledge of the unit. Thats why I wish Wyoming would do away with point sharing.....Those big groups of guys who know how to hunt the unit wouldn't be pounding the animals year after year. Sounds selfish, but is it? I dunno I guess that an opinion worth noting. Guys who are willing to hunt longer and harder will be rewarded and the guy who shows up with expectations will likely go home empty handed.

I hunted a unit in Wyoming for deer that is being SEVERLY inflated with point creep and it was pretty clear in the first 5 hours of daylight on who had been there and knew how to hunt the unit and who didn't (guys driving around aimlessly hoping a big buck would jump out in from of their Side by Side....) I had a plan. I learned/watched what others were doing quickly and I filled my tag. About half of other people that year went home empty handed according to the statistics (Which I find very hard to believe). Honestly, I am unsure if that unit was even a unit I would consider to be a unit that is worthy of saving points for years to hunt.

So many options so little time away from work for most of us.

 

[ida homer]

I love threads like this.

The quality of some of the hunts I've had in units that take a truckload of points is truly mind boggling. Yes, OTC hunts do tend to crank out some of the biggest animals, but running around a giant chunk of public land with only a handful of other tagholders and tons of animals is stupid fun.

No doubt about it.

The worst is scouting your ass off and finding a nice critter in an OTC unit, only to have 6 bozos walk through the basin opening day without even the slightest clue what was there.
Good times!

We have a lot of fun with tags we can get, say every 3-5 years, with pretty good antler quality, but only 100 tags instead of 4000+. To me those are the best value.

 

[WyoDoug]

I only buy points in states where I have a firm grasp on the point system, tag allocation system etc....I think WY has a decent system with the majority of tags being allocated to point holders, and still giving people with 0 points a chance in the random portion of the draw. Like others have mentioned, I have a definite plan when I start apply and I take point creep into consideration when making my plans and investing $'s in points.

They are still considering taking residents in Wyoming back to a point system. Not sure if it will ever fly though. 50% support it and 50% are against it and want a strict lottery system for residents.

 

[Pelican]

They are still considering taking residents in Wyoming back to a point system.

It baffles me that residents of WY, ID or NM would even consider point systems. Do not go down that road, not now, not ever. Learn from our mistake. You will eventually end up with a system that is a cluster. If you would have told people in CO that some tags would take 20+ years to draw when the point system was being considered 30 years ago, nobody would have believed you. That is reality now, and it is only getting worse.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

If you would have told people in CO that some tags would take 20+ years to draw when the point system was being considered 30 years ago, nobody would have believed you. That is reality now, and it is only getting worse.

Which in and of itself is funny... like do people just suck at math?

"OK so we are gonna do a pref point system, there are 5 trophy units, each unit will have 50 tags give out between all the seasons to keep quality high, there are 197,525 elk hunters in Colorado"

So yeah naturally everyone is going to draw? I mean even if there were 20% less resident hunters in CO when the system started and of those only 4% tried for one of the trophy units you still would be unlikely to hunt those units in your lifetime...


My perspective on hunting is of hunting, post internet and smart phones, because that's when I started... maybe before both only a handful of people actually new and participated in the draw.

 

[NoWiser]

Which in and of itself is funny... like do people just suck at math?

"OK so we are gonna do a pref point system, there are 5 trophy units, each unit will have 50 tags give out between all the seasons to keep quality high, there are 197,525 elk hunters in Colorado"

So yeah naturally everyone is going to draw? I mean even if there were 20% less resident hunters in CO when the system started and of those only 4% tried for one of the trophy units you still would be unlikely to hunt those units in your lifetime...

Math is hard. So is watching some damn 12 year old hunt “your” unit that you’ve been unsuccessfully trying to draw for 10 years. And that’s why we have point systems.

 

[Pelican]

do people just suck at math?

Yep, and they have unrealistic expectations.
A lot of people can’t seem to wrap their head around how point systems work. They equate points with lottery tickets, which is not correct. With powerball, if you buy two tickets you can double your chances vs. buying one ticket, there is not a finite number of winners. One person may win, three people may win, zero people may win in powerball. You are essentially competing against randomness. With point systems, there is a finite number of winners. If there are 10 tags, there will be 10 winners. You are competing against all other hunters. Everybody acquires points at the same rate of one per year, yet some think point systems are magical and make tags easier to draw for everyone, but they just shift the odds in favor of those with the most points.
I’ve explained this to so many people over the years and some still never get it. Some just can’t understand that even though they got another point, their odds are still between 0 and shitty until they are at the top and that there odds are actually lower than they would be if no point system existed.
This is why point systems started.

 

[justinch]

Yep, and they have unrealistic expectations.
A lot of people can’t seem to wrap their head around how point systems work. They equate points with lottery tickets, which is not correct. With powerball, if you buy two tickets you can double your chances vs. buying one ticket, there is not a finite number of winners. One person may win, three people may win, zero people may win in powerball. You are essentially competing against randomness. With point systems, there is a finite number of winners. If there are 10 tags, there will be 10 winners. You are competing against all other hunters. Everybody acquires points at the same rate of one per year, yet some think point systems are magical and make tags easier to draw for everyone, but they just shift the odds in favor of those with the most points.
I’ve explained this to so many people over the years and some still never get it. Some just can’t understand that even though they got another point, their odds are still between 0 and shitty until they are at the top and that there odds are actually lower than they would be if no point system existed.
This is why point systems started.

Good post. I started hunting WY in 2011 and obviously should have started buying points then, or in 2017 when I started thinking seriously about elk. Now I could start buying points and hope that I can still get a general tag with 2-3 points in a few years but considering there are thousands of people already in that group that will likely continue to buy points and apply, I guess I'm OK with a 25% chance in the random draw with zero points.