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What a Cluster!

BigHornRam

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Figured this case would be good for some interesting opinions! Note that it is in TEXAS.....on a game farm ranch. OK Schmalts......let er rip!

updated 4:56 p.m. MT, Thurs., April. 10, 2008
ELDORADO, Texas - It was no secret that a polygamist sect that built a compound in the West Texas desert believed in marrying off underage girls to older men. And the sheriff had an informant for four years who was feeding him information about life inside the sect.

But authorities say their hands were tied until last week, when they finally obtained the legal grounds to move against the group.

The trigger for the raid was a hushed phone call from a terrified 16-year-old girl to a family-violence shelter who accused her 50-year-old husband of beating and raping her. State troopers put into action the plan they had on the shelf to enter the 1,700-acre compound, and 416 children, most of them girls, were swept into state custody because of suspicions that they were being sexually and physically abused.

On Thursday, state and local law enforcement authorities defended their decision to leave the sect alone for four years after it moved in.

"We are aware that this group is capable of" sexually abusing girls, Sheriff David Doran said. "But there again, this is the United States. We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry."

Fears of trouble from beginning
Doran said it was not until after the raid began that he learned that the sect was, in fact, marrying off underage girls at the compound and had a bed in its soaring limestone temple where the girls were required to immediately consummate their marriages. Also, investigators say a number of teenage girls there are pregnant.

Authorities in Texas suspected there would be trouble ever since members of the renegade Mormon splinter group — the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints — bought an exotic game ranch in Eldorado in 2004 and began building the ranch.


Warren Jeffs, the sect's prophet and spiritual leader at its longtime headquarters in the dusty, side-by-side towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., was charged in 2005 and 2006 with forcing underage girls into marriages there. He was convicted in September in Utah of being an accomplice to rape and is serving up to life in prison.

Doran had been making occasional visits to the Eldorado compound — he even called to tell members of Jeffs' capture in 2006 — but he said he saw nothing to warrant a criminal investigation. Most of those milling around the compound would scatter when he and a Texas Ranger visited, he said.

'This group doesn't openly talk'
"You can only press someone so far without having a criminal investigation going on," the sheriff said. "This group doesn't openly talk and they do not openly answer questions."


Tony Gutierrez / AP
Children "were shuffled around houses" as investigators searched the polygamist compound in Eldorado, Texas, authorities said Thursday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doran said he had an informant who was "instrumental in teaching me the group's ways." But he declined to say whether the informant, a former sect member, was in Texas, or Utah or Arizona.

Barry Caver, a Texas Ranger who sometimes went with Doran to the compound, said a general welfare check wouldn't have produced much. "They would allow us on the property to the extent that we could talk to the main three or four people" only, Caver said.

Texas Attorney General Gregg Abbott said that despite other states' investigations into Jeffs and FLDS, Texas authorities had to wait until they had evidence of wrongdoing in this state to act. He said authorities handled the case properly.

"You cannot go in and bust in someone's house if there's not probable cause to do so," Abbott said.

Jonathan Turley, a George Washington University law professor who has written about polygamy, said even Jeffs' conviction was not enough to barge in on the sect in Eldorado.

"You cannot use stale evidence," Turley said. "They would need a contemporary statement or evidence at trial that an individual at the compound is practicing polygamy." What's next for the children in Eldorado?

Introduction
Authorities removed 416 children from a West Texas polygamist compound, in response to a report from a 16-year-old girl who accused her 50-year-old husband of beating and raping her.
The children, and 139 women who voluntarily left the compound near Eldorado, are now housed at two sites in San Angelo, about 40 miles from the ranch and 200 miles west of San Antonio.

The following are questions for Marleigh Meisner, spokeswoman for the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, and John J. Sampson, a University of Texas law professor who teaches the Children's Rights Clinic, which provides legal representation for abused and neglected children in Travis County. Sampson is not involved in the case.


What's the next legal step?
Meisner: April 17, a full adversarial hearing, 10 a.m., in the Tom Green County Courthouse. At that point we will make a recommendation to a judge. There will be attorneys appointed or even perhaps have already have been appointed to represent the children.

For each child individually or as a group?
Meisner: Normally, it's each child individually but the judge is making a decision how she's going to do that.
Sampson: You have X number of mothers and Y children and Z number of fathers, presumed fathers, alleged fathers, unknown fathers. All of the fathers are entitled to service. All mothers are entitled to service. All children are entitled to representation.


What if the judge decides not to grant custody?
Meisner: This is all to do with temporary custody. If the judge decided the children needed to be returned, then the children will be returned. It's ultimately always the judge's decision.
Sampson: State officials have already made something of a case to the judge when they convinced the judge we need an order not to investigate but to take possession of the children.

This kind of gets into speculation because since this is unprecedented... Since there's smoke here, we suspect fire. And so the court is almost always going to say: 'Yes I realize the statute says the parent should walk out with the child unless it would be dangerous. I've already had a preliminary determination that there's a danger to the child and we've had a hearing there's a danger to the child, and I find there's a continuing danger to the child so naturally the state is going to be continued in the foreseeable future.'


How long is that?
Sampson: "Foreseeable future" is supposed to be one year. You can get an extension for six months, then the case needs to be decided. Each case is an individual case, however many children there are. I read in the paper there's a whole lot of problems in identification. That does not help the parents get the children back when the children are not identified.

Is it possible 139 women could be separated from their kids?
Meisner: That's a decision that's to be made later and it's a decision that's not been made yet.
Sampson: The reluctance of a parent to cooperate doesn't facilitate the parents' situation. The only time a parent has a chance of prevailing is when they make a case. Now they have a presumption when they make a case that parents have a right to have and raise children, but that presumption is subject to trumping if there is a serious danger to the physical or emotional well-being of the child.


If the judge says the state can't continue temporary custody, will the women be free to go?
Meisner: They've been free to go always. They came because they asked to come. They've stayed with us but are free at any time to leave. They are here on their own choice.

Have any departed?
Meisner: To my knowledge, none have left.

Where would they go?
Meisner: I have no idea.

How much interest have you received from the public regarding foster care or adoption?
Have a lot of people come forward saying: Hey, we'd like to foster these children or we'd like to adopt these children? Yes. However, it's way too soon to be looking at adoption issues. These children are still in temporary care of the state of Texas. What we are doing is to try to find the best temporary accommodations for these children to keep them safe, to make sure that all their medical and emotional needs are being met. And when we go to court on the 17th, a judge will give us further direction as to what needs to happen with these children's lives.

If the women are free to go, is it reasonable to assume they'd be able to function in the real world outside the compound?
Meisner: I don't think I can address that.
Sampson: Some people obviously were coerced. The mothers followed their children but they didn't report the child abuse. Those who had reason to believe there was child abuse, and that's also criminal, and to that extent everybody in the whole commune could allegedly be charged with various crimes, including not reporting child abuse.


So just because they're free to go now doesn't absolve them of any future charges?
That is correct. That's for sure... It's an incredible precedent-setting situation, particularly since the last big raid like this was 50 years ago. And that all collapsed legally. The law is a lot more complicated now, and the rights of parents are significantly more protected.



The man alleged to be the 16-year-old girl's husband, Dale Barlow, is a registered sex offender who pleaded no contest to having sex with a minor in Arizona.

"I do not know this girl that they keep asking about," he told Utah's Deseret Morning News on Wednesday. "And I have not been to Texas since I was a young man back in 1977."

Officials still have not identified the 16-year-old girl among the children and the 139 women being held at two sites in Texas.

"When you're dealing with a culture like this, they're taught from very early on that they don't answer questions to the point," Doran said. "All of that is certainly being sorted out right now."
 
A More Current Article

By MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 5 minutes ago



SAN ANGELO, Texas - After hours of lawyers popping up with similar objections and questions, a custody hearing for 416 children seized from a polygamist sect finally turned to whether they were abused: A child welfare worker said some women at the sect's ranch may have had children when they were minors, some as young as 13.


The testimony came late Thursday, the first day of a court hearing to determine whether the children, swept up in a raid on the ranch two weeks ago, will remain in state custody. Child welfare officials claim the children were abused or in imminent danger of abuse because the sect encourages girls younger than 18 to marry and have children.

Child welfare investigator Angie Voss testified that at least five girls who are younger than 18 are pregnant or have children. Voss said some of the women identified as adults with children may be juveniles, or may have had children when they were younger than 18.

Identifying children and parents has been difficult because members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have given different names and ages at various times, Voss said. The state has asked that DNA be taken from all of the children and their alleged parents to help determine biological connections. The judge has not ruled on that request.

The court hearing, which continues Friday morning, disintegrated into farce early Thursday, as hundreds of lawyers who descended on San Angelo for the proceedings shouted objections or queued up to cross-examine witnesses. The judge struggled to maintain order.

"I've tried to impose some structure to this free-for-all," said Texas District Judge Barbara Walther.

The case — one of the biggest, most convoluted child-custody hearings in U.S. history — presented an extraordinary spectacle: big-city lawyers in suits and mothers in 19th-century, pioneer-style dresses, all packed into a historic courtroom and an auditorium two blocks away that was patched into the proceedings by a grainy video feed.

The state wants to keep the children in its custody, and likely move them to foster homes while officials continue investigating abuse allegations. The state must provide evidence the children were physically or sexually abused, or are in imminent danger of abuse.

In 11 hours on Thursday, only three witnesses testified, including Voss.

As lawyers shouted, dozens of mothers sat quietly in their long cotton dresses and braided upswept hair. They were sworn in as possible witnesses at the hearing's outset, but it was not clear when they might testify.

In the satellite courtroom at City Hall, hundreds of people strained to see and hear a large projector set up on the auditorium's stage. But the feed was blurry and barely audible.

"I'm not in a position to advocate for anything," complained Susan Hays, the appointed attorney for a 2-year-old sect member.

No decisions were made on the fate of any of the youngsters, and more cross-examination of Voss was likely Friday.

The children, most of whom are being kept in a domed coliseum in San Angelo, range in age from 6 months to 17 years. About 130 are under 4 years old, Voss said.

She said she was concerned about how the children and women followed the orders of the church's prophet, identified as jailed leader Warren Jeffs.

"The children reported that if the prophet heard from the Heavenly Father that they were to marry at any age, they were to do that. If the prophet said they were to lie, they were to do that," Voss said.

Jeffs is currently awaiting trial in a Kingman, Ariz., jail on charges related to the promotion of underage marriages. He previously was convicted of being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old wed to her cousin in a Utah case.

The sect came to West Texas in 2003, relocating some members from the church's traditional home along the Utah-Arizona state line. Voss said the ranch was considered a special place, the sect's Zion.

Authorities raided the 1,700-acre ranch south of here in Eldorado on April 3 and began removing children while seeking evidence of underage girls being married to adults. Walther signed an emergency order giving the state custody of the children taken from the ranch.

The raid was prompted by a call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl with the sect. She claimed her husband, a 50-year-old member of the sect, beat and raped her.

The girl has yet to be identified, though Voss said a girl matching her description was seen by other girls in the ranch garden four days before the raid began.

___

Associated Press writer Jennifer Dobner in San Angelo contributed to this report.
 
Yeah, that polyligamy stuff tends to rile folks up, and I can't say as I blame them. I can hear the lawsuits being argued from here. I undersatand this "sect" supported themselves with a concrete business and cheese manufacture. Whatever else they needed was supplied in the form of state aid: SSI, food stamps, etc. Another great scam bites the dust. Only in Americia.
 
It's terrible what's going on with those kids. Hopefully all this gets figured out.
 
Bighorn, you said "Schmalts, let er rip" I don't know what you want from me. Maybe you should do what I do and let er rip all by yourself without really giving a shit what other here think or worrying about some image. I commented on the other post about the ugly azz hags at this place and if they find some idiot to take on a bunch of them I could care less as long as they are 18 or older when it happens. The kid stuff is the thing that needs attention at not the multiple marriage thing.
O.K., now is where I will let it rip without worrying about MY image. I think there are waaaaay to many ****heads hiding corruption, molestation, and law breaking behind their so called "religion" Just one example...the Amish are some sick bastards here and I doubt they are different anywhere else. Not saying all of them are but there is a lot of daughter and sister banging going on with these inbred fuggs. They are Hypocrites to the max, and if you think I am making this up you never spent time around them. They have been in court many times over incest, child molestation, and a whole lot of other things. I was in court for a speeding ticket last fall and the court room was full of Amish. No clue why at first and then found out just like the molestation cases they are there to support their own kind because they feel that the accused is innocent because he confessed his sins and should be exempt in a US justice system. Anyway, this Amish guy was there in court because he was convicted of killing someone in a drunk driving accident. That's right, he was driving a car.
Watched 20/20 one night and they had a story about a Wisconsin Amish clan. An uncle and 2 brothers were raping 2 sisters like 20 and 14 years old. The older one went to the police. The AMISH BANISHED HER FROM THE CLAN. they showed the sentencing of the men and all these ugly hags in the seats crying for the men. The judge said something that really was good. he said "I see all you women crying for the convicted men, I hope you will do the same for the gild and young women victims"
I stopped at one of the local saw mills near my hunting land to see if they would saw a log I had and chatted with the guy a bit. Things got political when i started asking questions about what and why they cannot own or use for modern items. He said something about it is the devils way or something, not exactly sure how he worded it but that is when i asked him why there isn't one Amish person that will not turn down a lift into town in a car, or use your phone if they need to call some place. He said it was because as long as they don't own it it's o.k. I asked him if it was O.K to shoot someone in the head with a gun as long as it was borrowed and not his gun.... He gave me a blank stare. Bottom line, they are hiding behind religion for tax breaks, among other shady things and our Liberal democrat created politically correct fugged up world makes anyone afraid to take them on in most situations. I constantly bitch at the other residents to fight the county to make the Amish register and pay road use fees for buggies. The buggies have steel wheels and horse shoes and eat the shit out of the roads far worst than the cars do (study done proved it also) but no one will stand up to them. They get another free ride when I have to pay 100$ a year for each car and road use tax on gas to repair their damage.
I am watching a case now in the county my hunting land is in. Last fall they were reported and cited for uncased, loaded fire arms in their buggy's while going down the road and hunting without the required blaze orange. They are citing religion on this one as well and say they cannot wear bright colors while hunting.

I think I will start my own religion. One of the commandments is that I cannot pay taxes. The other one is I cannot wear clothes if i choose not. Another one will be that I don't need a tag or license to gather food in any state for any animal. And last, any wife that hits 35 must find a 20 year old replacement for herself and leave my compound. Who wants to join up?
 
Thanks Schmalts....that's what I was looking for!

I went to a Hutterrite Colony once to try to get permission to hunt on their land. The Twilight Zone theme song was playing in my head the whole time there.

How about Reverend Wrights 10,000 sq ft home and 10 million dollar retirement line of credit? Abuse of tax exempt status by so called religions in this country needs to end IMO.

See Schmalts.....another thing we can agree on!
 
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