Caribou Gear

More Opinions please.......



.......So if a guy flys around the world, booking hunts with one outfitter after another, paying to be pointed to game, and he has killed some really big and neat sh! he a great hunter or a "Proffessional Client"? As he brags about his trophy room, does he really feel like a great hunter, or more of a "shopper"? There is no doubt that any fat-@ssed counch potatoe who could not hunt his way out of a wet paper bag could pay to be put on practically any big game animal in the world and have a chance at success.........and that makes this clown a hunter? , there is nothing wrong with that at all, if that's what makes a guys clock tick, ......but I wonder how a guy like that fares if he finds himself one day having to hunt for himmself, he earns what he and he alone can do.......the check book is at the house, no help, momo-e-mono with the wild game he pursues in the wild elements in which they well would he do?

I think we should not confuse true hunting with situations where it becomes more of a "shoot" than a "hunt". I know some people have more money than time........and some have more lard on they're @ss than hunting skill.......and some would just as soon get their animals from a pen or private set-up.......just as long as they get a "big'un".........but my opinion is,.....they are dilusional if they compare that in any way to getting you butt out in free-ranging country and hunting down critters in your own........jsy not the same to me, no matter how you justify it...
I think that for the most part I agree with you DS. There are alot of "shooters" that travel the globe shooting, not hunting. I will say however that "guided hunts" are often just that; hunts. I guide deer and elk hunts on a 50,000 acre ranch in NE Utah. The terrain ranges from dry juniper flats, sage, rolling aspen, and deep dark black timber. No matter how much time I spend on that ranch, I still have to hunt hard to find the animals. I almost take offense to someone saying that a person who hunts with a guide should not recieve the same credit as someone who goes it alone.

I have a ? for ya, have any of you hunted an area that a hunting buddy of yours is very familiar with, but you have never been, and you take a nice animal, did that hunt mean less? That is kinda what I see myself as, the clients hunting buddy. I know the area pretty well, and try to share that knowledge with them, but to this day, despite all my practicing, I have yet to lay my lariat on a 28 inch buck or 350 class bull. We have to HUNT to find those animals.

Todd :(
Why do you seem so bitter against people who use guides for hunting. There is a big difference between shooting in a pen and hunting with a guide. I have done many self guided and full guided hunts. Both are very rewarding. The guide just knows the area. The animals are not tied down. There is no guaretee that you will get an animal. Yes I would also do a controlled kill (hunt) for certain buffalo (there are very few total free range wild buffalo hunts. I just feel that maybe you might be a little jelous over the people who do guided hunts. O by the why I guess you will never go to Africa or Alaska for brown bear, sheep, goat and soon moose. Iam sure alot will agree with me and many will diagree that is why we live in the greatest nation in the world
So Cal.......I am not bitter about people who take guided hunts........I simply am of the opinion that it is easier when you have a guide helping you is all......nothing you will print here will change my mind on that. Yes, I have been helped before, and I have helped many, and I do know the difference in the two.

I I were to go to,,.....let say.......New Mexico, and have never been there, but I hire a Guide...........I would expect my chances would be much greater than if I went alone and trid to figure it out having never been there before.......just not the same is all I'm saying.

And yes, I will go to Alaska after Dall sheep this year if all goes well, but won't be using a guide......rather a brother who knows a helluva lot less about hunting anything than I I figure my chances are proabbly lesser than if I forked over the money for a guide, thus I will feel even more pride when I bring a full curl back stateside.........not that I think hiring a guide is a bad thing, but if I did that and took a full would have been based on his knowledge...not can't see that?

Utahbowmen.......I know you work your ass off, and I know you hunt hard for your clients......I di know this, because I had the chance to guide also, and I don't underestimate the work you do......and that's my point exactly. Without what you do and your hard work...that all falls back on the hunter to do for himself.......and the ones who do it and make it work, generally have to put in a lot more effort to be successful than the ones who hire a guide to help.......again.....just my opinion.
Oh, and So Cal.......on the Africa thing.........never had a fancy to go...........might some day, but if I did, I would look at it more as a shoot than some critters I hunted for. My PH would be depended on heavily as I would not know the first thing about it would be tougher for me to kill a spike elk on my own in Co than go to Africa and have my PH put me on some game........or so I'm thinking.
I dont think theres anything wrong with guided hunts, been on one myself. But, I would much prefer to things on my own, didnt have a choice with sheep in AK. No relatives up there and a guide requirement.

DS is right, the outfitter I went with knew his shit, and all I had to do was be able to hike the mountains. He had everything all scouted out. I still did most of the hunt myself, final stalk, caping/boning meat, packing, etc.

But, it wasnt the same as my goat hunt in MT. I hunted solo for ten days then went back with my best friend and I was able to nail a nice billy. Much more rewarding.

Theres always this to think about though. Some outfitters are probably more of a liability than an asset. I wont mention any names, but I know of a few.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-20-2001 16:18: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>
I believe its o.k. to hunt in this fashion if thats what turns your crank. I personaly would not. Even if money wasn't an obstacle. The money spent on this kind of hunting leaves countles millions in the areas where this goes on. It helps to bolster the economy in these areas. If someone wants bragging rights to an unearnd trophy. Well so be it. Cabelas and Bass pro shop Buy trophys without even leaving a building. They even blatently advertise for such. I havent heard of any one getting pissed at them. I was just at the Sidney store last week, enjoing the place. Also in the bass shop in Misoury the day before that. Because some of us can't or won't buy canned hunts, dosn't make it wrong. What it really does is it takes these lazy people out of my woods. It just makes for less congestion in the outdoors for us to enjoy more...
Russ Goddard....
Good points Russ........but ya know, Bass Pro or Cabelas don't pretend they are hard earned trophies, but rather, wall ornaments for all us to gawk at while we're in the store shopping....thats a big difference.

I don't think anyone is mad or pissed at these guys for hunting in "cans"...........just don't expect the concept to be widely recognized on the same skill level as a fair chase hunt for free-ranging game on open ground is all.
No, I'm not pissed, actually kinda amused.

Let me give an example on the thing I was saying about guided hunts. I know several guides and outfitters........4 or 5 different ones in fact........and in general, these guys are some of the hardest working folks you'll ever meet, true hunters and sportsmen in every sense of the word, and I have a great deal of respect for what they do.......but here's a story that's a good example of what I was saying......

There was a guy last year that bought a "Governor's Tag" in either Arizona or New Mexico, I forget, but I bet Greeny will straighten me out on it ;) ........he paid more money than most of us will make in the next couple of year's for it, and it allowed him to hunt whenever and whereever he wanted in the entire state from the start of the season to the end. Now he was from Texas I think, kinda old, and knew his time was running out, so he hired a guide to find and hunt down a big muley for him.......had to be 30 inches or nothing. This guide was on payroll for this guy for over 3 months!........everyday he was out looking over the best areas in the whole state.....gone for weeks at a time in search of this guys buck. Well, he finally finds him, sends a hand out to call the Texan, get him on the plane, and the ride him into the area, .......all of this took several hours, but the guide stayed on the buck, following it through the somewhat open country, until which time the Texan met up with him,............and he did shoot the buck, a fine trophy, and I'm glad for him.

But just how good of a hunter was this Texan........well, he hunted up the fortune to buy the tag and rent the Guide for several months, he hunted up his private jet to get him into that sleepy little town.........and he hunted a couple of shells out of his pocket when the guide pointed to the muley a couple hundred yards yea,he hunted...........but I would think the guide did the hard work, and this guy never sees this buck had he hunted on his time, no energy, no idea where to start looking.........only money and a few hours out of his life. I'm happy for him, but recognize it for what it is.......he bought an animal.

My 14 year old son worked harder for his spike this year than that fella did for that "trophy"........and that's all I'm ain't the same when you pay a guide to do the hard work for you as it is when you get out and do it for yourself.

That does not deminish guides in any way.....they do a valuable service and I'm sure I'll be using one someday, but I'll recognize it for what it is when I do........

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 12-21-2001 09:07: Message edited by: Deerslayer ]</font>
DeerSlayer (and others)- I (and probably many others who are too well-mannered to respond)am getting REALLY tired of your loud-mouthed, uninformed, assinine condemnation of other folks hunting (or shooting) activities that do not conform to your personal idea of what hunting should be. Enough already! Get a grip, and get a life! You don't know what the hell you are talking about unless you have hunted a fenced operation - which clearly you haven't. I've hunted fenced and free range and have had great HUNTS and bad HUNTS both ways. So until you hunt a fenced operation and have some actual knowledge about them, keep your ignorant opinions to yourself unless you want to look even more of a fool than you already do :rolleyes:

Total experience - limited as it is:
8 whitetails 7 free range, one fenced 18000 acres)
3 mule deer all free range
1 axis deer free range
3 fallow deer one free range two fenced (fenced area 4000 acres).
1 red deer (fenced 2000 acres)
1 eland fenced (11000 acres)
1 wildebeest (11000 acres)
2 Scimitar oryx both fenced one fenced operation was really bad.
6 hogs all fenced 4 taken by spear with dogs 2 shot, one shot at 10 yards while charging a guide.

A Fat Texan
DS ,your right on as far as those people go.
I see them more as professional clients and shooters.
Utbowman,i agree with you that not all guided hunts are easy and that as in any hunting things go wrong.WE have to look at where they hunting how they hunted and what they hunted.But if hiring a guide didnt give that person the edge over the one that doesnt hire a guide we woulndt be needing outfitters.
You guys have your buisness because of that very thing.To give someone the edge,to teach them to hunt,to show them where the animals are,to help them get it out,to clean it ,to cape it.To cook for them,have the fire going,we all know how hard a hunt can be and all im saying is that the guy that has to provide it ALL for thereself doesnt have the EDGE.
He is experencing the whole thing from start to finish.
I am getting to the point that I have even thought how nice it would be to have that Edge,have someone else do my scouting ,my cooking ,cleaning and caping,and packing out.
Im not faulting outfitters & guides ,just pointing out how some of us see it as being different.
Im not pissed at the guy that does it,I just find it a little funny that some of those guys see thereself as good hunters and even look down there noses at the person that gets smaller animals. WE all know those folks,sure they take good animals but always use a guide. So whos good the guide or the shooter?
Im talking the ones that are professionals ,that go all over and hunt this way not the guy that comes from out of state every few years but hunts alone in there own state.
There he is.. it must be, yes, it's... THE EXOTIC HUNTER OF THE YEAR!

It that a hunting resume or something? You should put that funny list in your profile here so everybody remembers to bow in your presense and talk with respect and humbleness in your presense.
Great post Miss Muley! make my point better than I did about what a great service guides give, and I mean that. He!!, most guides are the very best hunters! They have to be.......this wasn't about guides, but rather pointing out the difference between what it takes to pay for some help, or having to do it all for yourself.......and there is a difference.

Raven.........I know more about penned operations than you might think.........I probably lived only a few miles from you most of my life. I also know of the Sanctuary in Michigan and such places that offer a fenced hunt "almost like the real thing".....the advantage being, you always know the animals are there, even if they do have several thousand acrtes to run on. Hey, you wanna through a spear at a hog in a fenced area, I won't piss in your lemonade for doing it. If pens are your style, you'll have plenty of company I'm sure, especially in Texas. But I'll tell you this, and you can believe come out here in this beautiful wild land.......bring all your favotite spears, and I'll bet you as much money as you can tote out here with ya that ya won't be spearing any of these wild critters.

So you got 33 animals on your resume' , half of which were fenced in, and this makes you an expert?.......I'm still scratching my head on that one. There have been some years I've taken that many animals, and I still don't claim to be an expert, but I am smart enough to see the difference between killing a critter in a fence and one outside a fence...HELLO!

Now this topic was for discussing differring opinions, but please, let's don't get ugly, but rather keep some civility here.....thanks in advance.... ;)
Greenhorn..... :confused: I think I wrote "experience limited as it is", but I listed it just so you'd know I wasn't a total "Greenhorn" 'nuf said there other than that you are as big a dufus on this board as you are on others - so I won't waste my time on your posts anymore.

DS - Sorry, you STILL don't know what hunting a fenced operation is about until you do it, so please don't critisize something you haven't any experience with - OK? I'm trying to be reasonably polite here, no sense getting off on some bellicose rant like some others do here.
Those hunts behind fences were almost all on foot (and the stalks I made on the animals to get a shot WERE ALL on foot) - most with a guide, since I realized my limitations and valued anything the guide could teach me. None of my fenced hunts were in a "pen" Unless you define any fenced area (even 11000acres) as a "pen". Most were good, one of them was bad - if you want names, just let me know...The open range hunts were all with a hunting party (no guides) some in Texas, most in North Dakota. I may not have your expertise as far as whitetails go, but just know that exotics are all different in their behaviors - all were great learning experiences. Try it sometime, it is not as expensive as you think and certainly worth your time.
PS try the hog hunting with a knife or spear sometime, its a lot of fun especially being treed by a pig and shooting with one hand while trying to hang on with the other. Then there is the time crawling through the cactus thicket with a flashlight and a knife.... fun there too. Have a great day! :D
Raven..I hear you, and I want you to know I have zero problem with hunting behind fact, I'm heading down in March to do a fenced hunt myself, and can't wait!

I was only suggesting that it is much easier to hunt animals when you know they can't leave. Yea, they can hide, and it's not automatic......but consider this.......what if, say, that Axis Deer your after had the fence removed from the ranch he was on........and he had all of Texas and beyond should he choose........would he be harder to get then? I would hunt Exotics in a minute, and don't doubt that. But there is a reason the season is year round on them,.....because it is a different game, regulated more by ranches......controlled hunts, with the animals at the mercy of their owners more than ability to flee.........

I'm sure those sheep will make me look bad more than once........and I know they are as wild as a March hare,.......but just the fact that I can load up and go to a place I've never seen and loose as many arrows as I choose to bring tells me it's easier than if I was to go up in the mountains here on a bowhunt.......and there is probably more game here.......just can't keep 'em all in one place is all ;)
DS and MD4Me

I still disagree with some of your points. All I am saying is that you cant lump all guided hunters into the same group. I agree that there are some "shooters" but there are also alot of "hunters" that use our services.

You two still have yet to answer my question. Have either of you hunted an area with a buddy that knew that area very well and took you along with them? Did your hunt end successfully? Did it mean less to you than a hunt where you went it alone?


DS-when you get a hankerin for some Utah mulies or a nice bull give me a ring and I'll hook ya up. :D
Todd.......I thought I did answer your question........Yes, I have gotten help from other hunters, and yes, I have helped many other hunters......and I know the difference in the two......I did already say this in the above post.

I know some very good hunters are occasionally guided, and when they are, they will have help and an easier go of it than if they do it all on their own. I guided a couple og hunters that were a helluve lot better elk hunter than I am.......but they needed help because it was a new area and they also needed access.

So if I come to you and you put me on those big Muleys you speak of........won't that be easier than if I came over there and tried to figure it out on my own?........I have no problem letting you put me on them :D ........but I WILL know the difference and I will know it was easier because I would have access to the knowledge you have already gained........all I'm saying is it is different than having to do it all on your own.

Just like the fact that working for B'cat did help me.......I won't deny that.......I learned a lot about it all...........and now try to apply that with other areas......but I do what I can for myself, because it just means more to me that way. Yeah, if you or anybody else wants to tell me some good info or point me, I'm all ears.............and don't think I haven't "pointed" several guys from this board.........I bet at least 5 or 6 of them would stand now and say I have........but they took that info and hunted on there own and worked their ass off doing it.

So yes, I'll give you the fact that there are a lot of really good hunters who use guides.......but when they's easier.

So when just when is it that we're going after these big Utah Mulies and nice Bulls? ;)
I agree with most all, but one thing I have noticed is we all expect and receive differently from our hunting experience, I would never even consider packin a centerfire on a deer hunt, been their done that and the thrill is gone for me. I know hunters with game rooms full of heads, many from guided and even ranch hunts,and depending on the time in their life,circumstances, health etc they are just as proud of their trophies as you and I are (*earned the old fashion way) to each his own , I could care less , as long as my hunting ain't screwed up by their actions, and to hell with this scoring system, it's done more to hurt our sport than all the 4 wheelers in the country, which is another one of my pet peeves, hehehe, in the mean time let em post their fancy pics all over the web,let em pay their money, and some day maybe just maybe, they will figure it all out.h2m
In a nutshell I suspect that the real difference between the two is just this.

Some guys(or gals) have more time and inclination than others.

Or the other hand, some have more MONEY than time. (include: time to hunt, time to scout, and in most of our cases EVEN MORE TIME TO SCOUT....ect)
Often, those with the Money, have worked their A$$ off to be able to afford to go on these guided hunts. So they just "worked" to get the game in a different way ($$$).
Was it easier on them?
To get the game probably YES, but they worked at it in a different way.

In your heart you know that the trophy you "WORKED" the hardest for is really the most prized....even if its a spike!
This topic is starting to get silly and carried away. We are all hunters here. All of variing degrees of skill. If it is your thing to go into a preserve and spend money to get an animal behind a fence. Or to have a giude show you around or like me. Everything is done basically solo. One on one with my quarry, with all of the homework of my own doing. Thats just the way it is. Any one downgrading another hunter [unless the individual is not ethical], should be ashamed of yourself. We all need to stick together, or the greeny brush munchers will have won. I think its great if an individual wants to take $$$ fro eir area and put it in another. Thats the american way. If they want to lie about how they got it. Well thats the way it goes. I would'nt have much to do with a lier myself. Thats just me. Lets start having fun on these threads. Thats what they're set up for.
Russ Goddard... :confused: :rolleyes: :D
Russ.....I hear ya man.....and I am having fun ;) .............and if not wanting to recognize hunting behind fences as the same as outside of them makes me a Skin be it :D .......I think ol' Flipper's been in the water too long.......either that or he has a crush on me :eek:
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