Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[Treeshark]

If that's the case, something is wrong with what we're teaching people about hunting in my opinion.

We all like big bucks, and a diverse age structure is important (ish).

But deer=food. If that equation changes, then we don’t need to hunt them anymore- that’s a slope we don’t want to go anywhere near. Something is wrong with your perspective if that’s not central to your views on hunting in my opinion.

 

[JT88]

Maybe I need to clarify. There are a lot of adults that honestly believe a 22" 2.5 year old 4 point mule deer is a huge mature buck. I don't think we should lie to them. It's not a huge mature buck. If you've ever seen a mature mule deer buck, it's not even close

It would be like believing a raghorn is a giant bull elk

 

[huntin24/7]

I can’t really relate to or understand wanting to kill a young buck every year, but I don’t have any problem with individuals that feel that way if it makes them happy. My only issue is the hunting them when those young deer are so vulnerable with little if any regulation in place to protect some of them. But if you have a valid tag and it makes you happy, I don’t judge anyone for taking a young buck.

 

[Treeshark]

There are a lot of adults that honestly believe a 22" 2.5 year old 4 point mule deer is a huge mature buck.

I understand your point, but I believe that the baseline has clearly shifted (likely for good). What was a representative animal in 1993 and 2023 are not the same thing.

The good ol’ days aren’t ever coming back… this phenomenon is not unique to Eastern Montana, it just got bit by it later than most places.

Plus, deer=food so what does it really matter?

 

[DFS]

A rutted up mule deer buck is not good table fare.

 

[Treeshark]

A rutted up mule deer buck is not good table fare.

Then why hunt them at all?

 

[DFS]

Then why hunt them at all? It’s not like they’re over-populated.

Haven’t shot one in Montana since 2015.

 

[brocksw]

I have grave concerns for mule deer in North America. Loss of seasonal habitat, changing forage conditions, multiple types of human expansion, CWD, weather variables.... I try to be optimistic but....

A rutted up mule deer buck is not good table fare.

I disagree

 

[JT88]

I'm not saying that everyone should be a trophy hunter. But we have standards and regulations and morally acceptable practices in every type of hunting. If you're driving around and you see a 2.5 year old fork chasing a doe in the parking lot, maybe you need to ask yourself why it hasn't been shot yet. Someone had higher standards. I guess I don't feel good about shooting fish in a barrel. I value the pursuit, the challenge of hunting, along with the meat. And I think it all ties together. I personally believe a lot people saying they do it for the meat are using it as an excuse to shoot something, coincidentally, 2.5 year bucks in the rut are the easiest thing. When really they just want to identify as a successful hunter, because they think it's cool.

If someone really want to drive to MT to shoot a 2.5 year old deer for the meat to feed their family, OK. But I think we're kidding ourselves if we think most hunters are

 

[Irrelevant]

We're confusing two points.

1. Hunting is about food acquisition. Some people are perfectly content to simply kill a deer to eat. And a "rutted up mule deer buck" is plenty good on the table. I had some this week, tasted fine. If it doesn't you're doing something wrong or have a more "refined" palate than I do.
2. In adequate age structure for those that want to not only get a deer to eat, but also challenge themselves to chase around a wiley older buck that may allude them time after time, that may take WAY more time, effort, and skill to kill.

What we shouldn't be doing, if pushing those in group number 1 toward killing every mule deer buck on the landscape. That seems like an easy regulatory fix. WT does tags.

 

[Treeshark]

Haven’t shot one in Montana since 2015.

I was being a bit pedantic to prove a point, but good for you for sticking to your principals.

My point is we need to be VERY careful uncoupling hunting with food. The “need” for us to hunt diminishing populations of animals goes to a really dangerous place if that occurs imo.

 

[DFS]

Mule deer would be just as good eating in October when the species is less vulnerable.

 

[huntin24/7]

I understand your point, but I believe that the baseline has clearly shifted (likely for good). What was a representative animal in 1993 and 2023 are not the same thing.

The good ol’ days aren’t ever coming back… this phenomenon is not unique to Eastern Montana, it just got bit by it later than most places.

Plus, deer=food so what does it really matter?

I think there are very few people that believe we could ever get back to the good old days. Times have changed, habitat has changed, etc. I think the fact that so many people want to improve age structure and herd health is definitely a good thing. Even though we can’t get back to the glory days, there’s nothing wrong with trying to come up with ways to improve herd health, more diverse age structure while still allowing opportunity for those who are content to kill any deer. Eventually, regardless of what kind of deer makes you happy as a hunter, we’re all going to have to make sacrifices. I’d rather we start making those sacrifices now than later.

 

[Treeshark]

Well said, can’t disagree with a thing you just said huntin24/7.

 

[406dn]

Not afraid to use my legs. Anyone can do it ... if they don't have to push their gut out of the way to find the zipper.

So, there you have it...lace them up tighter and go in deeper.

 

[OntarioHunter]

There is a difference between quality herd management and quality horn management. I had no qualms with my brother taking that small buck. I could have shot him three times the day before. Then it runs across a field straight to our vehicle. That stupid deer is not quality for herd health. Go ahead and take him! My buck was 6.5 years old and managed to stay alive on public land. But he was done. Turns out he had a damaged right eye (note the blood in photo) with blood inside the orbit. I suspect he was blind in that eye (but I shot him from left side). A good one to cull. Some bruising to shoulder on that side too. Possibly hit by a vehicle or hurt fighting.

 

[TOGIE]

I'm not saying that everyone should be a trophy hunter. But we have standards and regulations and morally acceptable practices in every type of hunting. If you're driving around and you see a 2.5 year old fork chasing a doe in the parking lot, maybe you need to ask yourself why it hasn't been shot yet. Someone had higher standards. I guess I don't feel good about shooting fish in a barrel. I value the pursuit, the challenge of hunting. And I think it all ties together. I personally believe a lot people saying they do it for the meat are using it as an excuse to shoot something, coincidentally, 2.5 year bucks in the rut are the easiest thing. When really they just want to identify as a successful hunter, because they think it's cool.

If someone really want to drive to MT to shoot a 2.5 year old deer for the meat to feed their family, OK. But I think we're kidding ourselves if we think most hunters are

I think this is sort of where the uncoupling needs to occur. You're not wrong on these points, but the issue here is the mismanagement, or lack of management, not the people who are okay with taking home any deer.

No doubt people use the reason of meat to justify the shooting of dinkers and no doubt many of them actually don't love getting the meat like I and many others actually do. I personally have no intention of spending NR prices to drive up to montana to mostly find dinkers. But if I did, I know i'd have a good time anyway because I went hunting and found animals I can hunt. But, I can find that at home without issue for 1/7th the price and I have much higher odds of finding bigger deer too, which, duh, me and everyone else would love to shoot. But I shoot the dinkers cause i'm out there to get some more meat and spend time outside at the end of the day.

There is just a lot of nuance to the whole situation of why many people shoot the kind of deer they do. In some circumstances i'm sure i'll pass dinkers in hopes of finding bigger deer, in most I'll probably try to notch my tag though.

The dink shooters seem to be getting caught in the cross hairs, when the target is FWP.

We should generally take people on their word though that they are just happy to get the meat and spend time outside because if that's not what hunting is about then these political activists pushing ballot initiatives and hijacking commissions are gonna take us to the cleaners; Montana won't be immune as time marches on.

 

[brocksw]

There is a difference between quality herd management and quality horn management. I had no qualms with my brother taking that small buck. I could have shot him three times the day before. Then it runs across a field straight to our vehicle. That stupid deer is not quality for herd health. Go ahead and take him! My buck was 6.5 years old and managed to stay alive on public land. But he was done. Turns out he had a damaged right eye (note the blood in photo) with blood inside the orbit. I suspect he was blind in that eye (but I shot him from left side). A good one to cull. Some bruising to shoulder on that side too. Possibly hit by a vehicle or hurt fighting.

There's just....so much....so much

 

[JT88]

I had no qualms with my brother taking that small buck. I could have shot him three times the day before. Then it runs across a field straight to our vehicle. That stupid deer is not quality for herd health. Go ahead and take him!

 

[JT88]

Thanks, Ontario, you've made my point