Bison ESA listing review

[Dougfirtree]

Whoa, man, this is a philosophical question, much like debating whether the universe is, in any way, truly stochastic or if it all fixed and fated determinism.

Let's just say that it is undebatable that the ESA extends to unique subspecies and populations. For instance, the Mt. Graham Red Squirrel in SE Arizona is an ESA, though it is the same species as the red squirrel found from Alaska to Massachusetts. The Alabama Beach Mouse is another - though it is one of 5 sister subspecies of beach mice (all but one Endangered) and the very common interior Old field mouse. They are all in the species Peromyscus polionotus.


No, - well yes, it is easy to describe with DNA analyses, this can be quantified and Bison vs cows, Wolves vs dogs, and Wolf vs Fox are simple. But when we get into flavors of wolves, things get messy because it becomes more like a gradient than well defined clusters. The problem isn't in quantifying the differences, but rather, drawing the lines in the sand.

Just for instance, y'all are part Neanderthal and almost certainly, y'all could still breed with them if they were still around (and if they'd have ya --- ). But that doesn't make them Homo sapiens nor us Homo neanderthalensis.

Suffice it to say, if you think you are going to do an end run around the ESA based on the possible (is this really a fact) minor genetic intrusion of domesticated bovine jeans, you are wasting your time, and mine, and everyone else's. It's been tried on far foggier species delineations than this and face planted every time.

You could do yourselves a favor if you threw out the ultra-simplistic definition of biological species that you learned in high school. It just doesn't work very well when getting down to the nuts and bolts of real-life biology.

This makes me think of the coyotes we have around here. Supposedly they are coyote/wolf hybrids with a splash of other canine. Some of them look like western coyotes, some of them look pretty wolf-like. You'll see one that weighs 20 pounds and then down the road, another that weighs 60 pounds. I've heard biologists refer to them as coy-wolves.

 

[mtmiller]

Love it when a plan comes together.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Whoa, man, this is a philosophical question, much like debating whether the universe is, in any way, truly stochastic or if it all fixed and fated determinism.

Let's just say that it is undebatable that the ESA extends to unique subspecies and populations. For instance, the Mt. Graham Red Squirrel in SE Arizona is an ESA, though it is the same species as the red squirrel found from Alaska to Massachusetts. The Alabama Beach Mouse is another - though it is one of 5 sister subspecies of beach mice (all but one Endangered) and the very common interior Old field mouse. They are all in the species Peromyscus polionotus.


No, - well yes, it is easy to describe with DNA analyses, this can be quantified and Bison vs cows, Wolves vs dogs, and Wolf vs Fox are simple. But when we get into flavors of wolves, things get messy because it becomes more like a gradient than well defined clusters. The problem isn't in quantifying the differences, but rather, drawing the lines in the sand.

Just for instance, y'all are part Neanderthal and almost certainly, y'all could still breed with them if they were still around (and if they'd have ya --- ). But that doesn't make them Homo sapiens nor us Homo neanderthalensis.

Suffice it to say, if you think you are going to do an end run around the ESA based on the possible (is this really a fact) minor genetic intrusion of domesticated bovine jeans, you are wasting your time, and mine, and everyone else's. It's been tried on far foggier species delineations than this and face planted every time.

You could do yourselves a favor if you threw out the ultra-simplistic definition of biological species that you learned in high school. It just doesn't work very well when getting down to the nuts and bolts of real-life biology.

Any rule of thumb for how far separated things have to be for viable offspring... or just no?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Whoa, man, this is a philosophical question, much like debating whether the universe is, in any way, truly stochastic or if it all fixed and fated determinism.

I'll save the deep dive for when we're drinking beers staring up at the stars after chasing birds.

 

[BrentD]

This makes me think of the coyotes we have around here. Supposedly they are coyote/wolf hybrids with a splash of other canine. Some of them look like western coyotes, some of them look pretty wolf-like. You'll see one that weighs 20 pounds and then down the road, another that weighs 60 pounds. I've heard biologists refer to them as coy-wolves.

Yes, it gets muddy fast, and you are correct about wolves, (esp, red wolves further south) interbreeding out east.

Any rule of thumb for how far separated things have to be for viable offspring... or just no?

No, sorry. Keep in mind we are 97% similar to chimpanzees, but clearly *most* of us are no where near as smart as a chimp or in anyway like them. What matters are the genes themselves. Quality over quantity.

I'll save the deep dive for when we're drinking beers staring up at the stars after chasing birds.

Please do! It's a great topic to discuss (true stochasticity or biological species, take your pick). A starry night, birds, EtOH and it's all good.

I forgot to add, if you read the ESA itself, you will see that it makes explicit provisions for imperiled, unique populations and more. It is not JUST species (whatever they are).