Trophy cost ?

Moosie

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JSut wondering... I know JJhack posted that the dayly fee may go up and down and the Trophy price might too.

MY question is whats the "AVERAGE". I've seen many a list. HERE is a list just to say YAH or NEIGH to it.

Kudu1, 550.00
Impala 450.00
Blesbok 450.00
Gemsbuck 1,450.00
Red hartebeest 1,250.00
Eland2, 350.00
Blue wildebeest 1,090.00
Duiker 425.00
Steenbuck 425.00
Klipspringer 1,290.00
Zebra Burchell 1,090.00
Waterbuck 1,950.00
Bushbuck 990.00
Mountain Reedbuck 850.00
Tsessebe 2,500.00
Warthog 300.00
Bushpig 400.00
Ostrich 500.00
Sable 9,500.00
Baffalo 9,800.00
Giraffe 3,000.00

this outfit seems to be higher but then has good Daily rates... ANY input ?

CAN anyone throw out another list or ideas ?
 

JoseCuervo

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Moosie,
I have a sheet that I picked up at the Sportsman's show, and I'll put those numbers in, after yours. They will show up as the second set of numbers following the >>

Kudu1, 550.00 >>1150, over 55" $1450
Impala 450.00 >>$250
Blesbok 450.00 >>$400
Gemsbuck 1,450.00 >>$950
Red hartebeest 1,250.00 >>$850
Eland2, 350.00 >>$1600
Blue wildebeest 1,090.00 >>$850
Duiker 425.00 >>$200 for greay, $700 for Red
Steenbuck 425.00 >> $200
Klipspringer 1,290.00 >>$550
Zebra Burchell 1,090.00 >>$950
Waterbuck 1,950.00 >>$1400
Bushbuck 990.00 >>$600Limpopo
Mountain Reedbuck 850.00 >>$450
Tsessebe 2,500.00 >>$1450
Warthog 300.00 >>$200
Bushpig 400.00 >>$300
Ostrich 500.00 >>$500 (You gonna kill an Ostrich???)
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Sable 9,500.00 >>$NA
Baffalo 9,800.00 >>$10,000+Daily Fees
Giraffe 3,000.00 >>$2500

The daily fees on this one ranged from $295 for 2on1 Rifle to $345 1on1 Rifle, to 1on1 Big Five for $450/day.

I have a bit more research to do, and then I think I will get a "quote package" together, and see what the range is going to be. I really only want to kill 3 animals for the wall, one for the floor (Zebra), and then I could be happy shooting beer cans on fence posts.
elkgrin.gif
 

Moosie

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Elkgrinner, Take the spaces out of your Signature
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WHEN you planningto go to Africa ? I'm planning not next year but the year after... Unless Of course a good deal comes through
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JoseCuervo

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I think it is next year, come hell or high water. I think I like the idea of going when there isn't anything here to kill. It won't interfere with Idahome hunting if I go for a May/June date. (Unless you count bears in Idaho as hunting, I just call it skinning and packing for others....)

Between my kids getting close to 12 years old, and friends kids that want to hunt, I think I have quite a few of the next early Octobers looking for does (dry does
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) and forkies (big forkhorn, good eating
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) for the young ones to pop. Or making late runs to the Clearwater for WT does...

I could probably be talked into going this year, on a screaming good deal. No, I couldn't. Yes, I could. No, I couldn't. Yes, I could. No, I couldn't. Yes, I could.

Maybe this war thing will scare everybody from International Travel, and I can have the whole Bushveld to myself....
elkgrin.gif

Tried to remove some spaces... We'll see how incompetent I am...
 

Moosie

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LOOK at the ELK section... UNder the OSCAR topic
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Click HERE for the topic ....

NEXT year eh ? I'm guessing after tomorrow or the next day You'll have alot less traveling companions... BUt thats jsut my inside guess
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JJHACK

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Trophy fees are like the sticker price on a new car. They are usually high based on a single animal safari. Make absolutely certain that you get a package price quote on the game you want to shoot for sure. Then just add the additional game you shoot if you like something more then the original quote. Don't worry about asking for a specific package that may not meet the ones offered. If your using a booking agent they may not be able to deviate from the outfitters package. If you book directley with the outfitter or the PH they will be able to make any package you like.

Make 100% sure you will be refunded the money for game you do not shoot in the package. (this refund is usually not at list price because the packaged price was discounted)

Don't hunt in the Eastern Cape for put and take aniamls. Regardless of how cheap it sounds those hunts are horrible. The non-native non-indiginous game is wandering around, completly out of it's natural habitat and is in an un-natural surrounding. It's like a carnival target shooting game. Save the airfare andd hunt in Texas for the same aniamls!

I wish you well and can answer what ever questions you have here or through Email.
 

JoseCuervo

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JJ,

Thanks for posting on this topic. I appreciate the information, and hopefully others are learning a bit about the SAfrica process, and how to book a hunt there.

My next question (Lochi, are you out there?) is to ask about the need for a booking agent. What are the pro's and con's from the hunter's side, and what are the pro's and con's from the outfitters side? Who does the agent work for , the Outfitter or the Hunter? (example, Real Estate agents ACTUALLY work for the Seller.)

Are there any qualifications to be a Booking agent, and do they take any risk?

And what is a "hunting consultant"?

If you don't want to answer in public, you can e-mail me, but it might have interest to other members.
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JJHACK

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We have never had a booking agent do hunts for us. We much prefer to handle everything ourselves to be sure what is promised is what is delivered. The Pros and cons.... Well a tough call. What I'll share is not regarding "ALL" agents but the ones I have dealt with when working with another Safari company and while I was Guiding in Alaska.

Booking agents will likley fall on the side of the outfitter when a tough decision is made because they don't have much leverage with them. They also have a long term relationship with the outfitters, and a one time business deal with the hunter. Outfitters can be easily blamed for everything by the Booking agent too!

Booking agents are going to collect 15 to as much as 20% of the safari cost for your hunt. A 5000.00 hunt gets the agent 1000.00 bucks! I have also seen booking agents get very cheap prices from an outfitter and sell the hunts for almost double the price. We have had a lot of arguments and angry clients in camp when they find out one guy paid 4000 for a hunt and the other paid 6000 or more for the exact same hunt, who is in the camp as the same time. It's how we came to find out about this agents booking practices. The Booking agent is selling hunts from a catalog of "items". He will have tons of options for you depending upon what you want. He will have done the research to know, and is a good source of answers to the questions you have for preperation and travel. They can also assit or provide the air travel for you. Most outfitters have to use a Booking agent because they have little in the way of management skills OR no time to handle that side of the business.

In that big catalog of hunts he will have. Some are highly profitable and some are not. The ones sold most frequently are the ones that make the most money. It's human nature and just a matter of sound business practice. It's especially common for booking agents to book hunts in the Eastern Cape because they have the highest level of profit and success. The "put and take" operations are highly profitable and guaranteed to proviode the trophies your after within easy reach.

The booking agent is also a good buffer between the outfitter and the hunter at describing the conditions and the details of the hunt. Plenty of the details can be stated and then be much different when you arrive if the locations you hunt are new that year or just to tell you what you want to hear for the sale. After all the Booking agent will not be there with you to back up what he said. It's funny to me to hear a Booking agent praise the Outfitter and the lodge saying just how magnificent everything is. Then with a problem he explains to the same hunter what a jerk that outfitter has become and how he will never use that rundown lodge again. This conversation was 1 year apart with the same guy! The true "used car salesmen" personality!


Booking direct with an Outfitter is a good way to save that Booking agent fee, but your hunt will likely split some of the difference to allow the Outfitter to make a bit more money. I have seen Outfitters make as little as 350 bucks on a 10 day hunt when using a booking agent. The Booking agent in many cases has made more money then we did on the hunts we provided because we had to be competitive priced. Then he marked it up 30%! It's one of the many reasons we no longer use a Booking agent for the lodge.

Booking direct with the outfitter you lose the local information base for preparing your trip and getting advise on travel. Many outfitters will not have a clue about travel to help you. Many have never been to the USA and have never flown in a commercial airplane. Sending 50% of your deposit to Africa is a high risk when dealing direct with an outfitter. You will not likley ever see that money again if you have a problem and cancel or he goes out of business. Anything you send to Africa direct should be considered gone forever. Outfitters usually are very difficult to contact because they are busy in the bush and when they get home have families and other obligations to sort out. Phone contact is difficult and expensive. A 30 minute Phone call to South Africa will cost 50 dollars or more.

Having said all this hardly puts a dent in the big picture and explains many of the finer details. One reason our business is so unique is that we don't have a booking agent and you don't have to deal direct with Africa. I live in the USA 10 months a year and work in South Africa the other 2 months or more as a Professional Hunter. I take care of all the booking's and answer all the questions. I'm within easy reach and help everyone with the information they need to have a successful trip. It's one reason I was contracted to write the Book " Africa the First Time". My trips every year sometimes twice yearly over the last 12 seasons have given me a lot of travel experience. The fact that I spent so much time in South Africa and went to school there helped me to learn the language, culture and the business very well. I'm now a partner/ owner of the business and we have a perfect match of property, game, and lodge, with one of us in America to handle the hunting arrangements. Deposits with us are 100% refundable until Jan first each year. We also do not require 50% up front. The deposits stay with me in the USA until The first of each year.

To be fair to Booking agents who do trips all over the world and have dozens of clients going different directions all the time, they have a more complicated job. We don't have that many clients in a whole season. We only book enough hunters to keep the game populations in check. We have between 20-24 hunters per year in our lodge and that is all we will take for the whole year. Anyone booking a hunt will not be left out in the cold either. I'm on site while the hunters are there. Everything I said and promised will come true or I will fix it. There is no bait and switch or promises that cannot be fullfilled, as with many booking agents who send you on your way hoping for the best.

Our business is quite small. My partner and I along with our trackers skinners maids and cook. We hire the best free lance PH's available( as needed) to work with us during the hunts. Most have worked the property since it opened for hunting. It's the reason the deposits are sent over in January. It's when I pay the PH's for the time they will work.

They have to be paid or at least given a deposit to guarantee their time is covered. Most of these top notch PH's have a great demand from plenty of other outfitters. We have to keep them paid and happy to depend on their work each year.

They would all be booked shortly after the hunting shows in the Jan Feb time frame, so we lock up hunting dates and payment with the PH's we want working for us before the Hunting shows start. Usually by Jan we know the whole season is set as well. Hope this clears up a little bit of the Booking agent/ Outfitter. Question for you.
 

JoseCuervo

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JJ,

Thanks for the post on the Booking Agents. It definitely helps put it into perspective. Some transactions benefit from facilitators and middlemen, and some transactions don't.

If you understand each person's motivation, along the value chain, then you can understand who's interest they will be looking at for.

I am sure there is a value from the Booking Agents, who can do a good job of marketing for Outfitters who may be great hosts/guides/etc, but weak on the marketing side. And the value of Booking Agents to clients who want somebody else to do the research, make the arrangements, and attend to other details is probably fair to a large amount of people.

More than once, I have heard from hunters, "I am going to start booking hunts, so I can write of my own hunts as a business expense." Not sure if this ever happens, as I don't follow up on them, but it would seem like the barrier to entry in this field would be somewhat low. Do the Outfitters have exclusive relationships with Agents, or are the outfitters usually allowing ANY agent to sell hunts? I can't imagine these agents are able to check out each Outfitter.

If you need a co-author for your book, let me know, as I am spending the next 14 months, doing the research, asking the questions, and packing the luggage for a "First Time in Africa"....

I still need to make my list of Trophies I want, and figure out what would look good on the wall. Can you put a Kudu on a wall next to an Elk, or do you need to have the North America room and then an Africa room, and not mix the trophies???? Ahhh... What a great problem to contemplate.

Thanks,
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Lochi

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Apologies Elkgunner ...
... for reacting in "African time".
I have been working long hours, no time to visit the boards.

I do not have the foggiest clue how the agent set-up works. Assuming you could go with JJ's explanation. I also read it and learn as I go. Thanx JJ, informative stuff.

BTW JJ, why do you hate the Eastern Cape so much? Sure there are "put and takes", but that you have in all provinces to more or lesser extent. I have only hunted once in the EP (it is too fat to travel) on Tsolwana 60000 acres, took impala (bow) and black wildebeest and gemsbok and redhartbeest and springbok and fallow deer (there's your exotic!!) with handgun and rifle, and really enjoyed the hunt (with rhino sharing the veld on foot). But maybe my sample (Aug last year) was too small to draw a proper statistically significant conclusion.

Fees.
You know Elkgunner, you and Moosie keep fluffing about like chickens without heads!
Now, will you please sit down and listen to uncle Lochi.

Step one. Send me a rough wish list of common plains game, typically what you would expect a first-timer-to-Africa would want to shoot.
Allow me to adjust it, send back, you fiddle, I fiddle, then I price it firmly for you.
Next step, you contact the references I give you.
Next step, you contact my client who will be here end May beginning June. You watch his daily progress with hawk's eyes on the web site that I built him, especially for this safari. (I take a digital camera with me in the veld and upload pictures every time I walk past a computer).You contact him as soon as he lands back in New York on 3 June. (No, he is not my agent, he is a first-time client, met him on the Internet).
Last step. You finally come to your senses and decide to take the leap, this year still, yes, this year!

Then Oscar and the other headless chickens can watch your daily progress on your web site while you hunt in South Africa.
Try me!
Lochi.
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JJHACK

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I don't hate the Eastern Cape, What in the world would give you that Idea??

I like the Eastern cape or anyplace else in Africa for the indiginous game they offer. I don't like the idea of hunting game which is released to be shot in a place in never naturally existed! This where the majority of hunting in the Eastern cape fit's. How many indiginous big game species are in the EC, compared the the Northern Province? If you travel all the way to Africa to hunt don't you want to hunt wild game in it's natural habitat?

If all a guy wants is to collect a bunch of heads in an unnatural area with game released before he arrives then it's sounds like the plan. I would however save the time and expense of the flight and hunt for the same animals in Texas though!

Our game in not released for hunting. It's natural born and lives wild it's whole life. All the babies are born wild and live to die of old age if not hunted or killed by predators. But then our hunting is a side line of the property. We only have a limited few hunters per year to take off the over population of animals. Our main business is in the white rhinos we deal in.

Think about this for a minute. If you take 40 hunters per year and all shoot a 50" plus kudu how many years can you do this before there are no more big Kudu left? It takes 6-7 years in good (natural) habitat to grow a bull that size. When you see these high volume short duration hunts use some common sense and think about the way that many animals cna be killed each year! The same can be said for many species. They just don't reproduce and mature at the rate many places hunt them. The only option is restocking. I have a vast knowledge of this part of the safari business because we sell game to these places from our property!

We often get requests for animals to be sold to other places because they are struggling to meet the demands of the booked hunters. I have worked there a long time and with many different Safari Companies. I have seen the best and worst of the safari industry now.

I'm Proud to be a partner in this operation because I know when my hunters return home they will be proud of their hunt and will have earned their trophies. It's why I have a fully booked season or very close each year. The word spreads quickly between friends when the business is this well managed and operated.

Again I don't hate the eastern cape, I just don't like that so many Foreign hunters come to hunt there thinking they are really hunting wild game in Africa because nobody has told them what is really going on.

Hunting for true wild born natural game is not that difficult to find. We have plenty, Just Email me and I'll tell you what ever you want to know about it. [email protected]
 

Lochi

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JJ,
You concluded above posting with "Just Email me and I'll tell you what ever you want to know about it."

I respect your knowledge since I do not know its boundaries. I am new to the Professional hunting scene, but not new to hunting in SA.
I have not argued in favour of the ethics of "put-and-take" methods, so you need not try to convince me. However, I do know that there are very-very few game farms which never buy in game, albeit natural from that area or not. Many clients want to do it all from one place. I personally prefer to take my clients to more than one ranch so that they can appreciate our vast open plains as well as the nostalgia of the Karoo and Kalahari, but also our dense Bushveld region, from Lowveld to mopane to thorn bush.
One has to see it in perspective, though. Supposing a Bushveld farmer buys in some more impala (so it is a species natural from that area). After how many generations may those offspring be hunted to qualify for not being "put-and-take"? After all, for game sellers like yourselves, it's a good thing there are game buyers, even the "put-and take" ones like rhino buyers.
Not all Eastern Cape Farms have exotic bought-in animals, is what I said. Like the other 8 provinces, there are good places and less good places, but I do not think one should generalise.

You seem to have a nice operation going. I am envious of land owners, but wish you luck.
Lochi.
 

JoseCuervo

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JJ and Lochi,

Thanks for the comments, and I appreciate your insight, both of you. I think you both have differing backgrounds, and that is great to be able to read the ideas.

Lochi,
I admidt I run around like a chicken with the head cut off, and I can't speak for Moosie, but that is the only way I seem to be able to get everything done. I would love to get to Africa sooner than later, but it takes a bit of planning.

Here is my current schedule,
Today--- in Japan,
in 8 days, start bear hunting in Idaho
In 2 weeks, back in Japan,
in 4 weeks, back in Japan,
Second week of June,--- 4 day raft trip in Hells Canyon, with kids to celebrate end of school, with some great rapids and fishing.
July 1,--- Prince of Wales Alaska for some salmon fishing with Dad.
August 8,--- week long raft trip down the Main Salmon in Idaho (River of No Return) with the kids. (or is it actually a scouting trip for my Sheep Tag, that I am sure I will draw....
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)
September -- Cast and Blast float trip/Steelhead fishing trip / Chukar hunt on Lower Salmon.
October -- Mule Deer and Elk in Idaho
November -- Whitetails in Idaho
Unscheduled -- Sheep tags in Idaho, Oregon, Arizona, and Nevada. Elk tags in Arizona, Nevada, and Oregon, and I just know I will draw one of them.....
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Keep in mind, all of the above are un-guided, un-outfitted (except the POW salmon trip) so there is a fair bit of effort to get the gear loaded and packed for each trip.

Plus, I have friends kids 13 and 15 who both want to go deer hunting this fall, my own daughter has a license as a 10 year old, so we will need to do some Goose hunting to get her a bird.
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And last week, I just signed up to start teaching Hunter Safety classes. And to be honest, I would prioritize the kid's hunting over some of my own, as I think the kid's trips are that important.

So, I would love to be able to go to Africa this year, just not sure which week.....

JJ and Lochi,
I need to find me a map, and start placing the provinces and the game, and the hunting styles. I imagine hunting South Africa is just like hunting the USA. It means something different to whoever says it, just as shooting a Whitetail from a stand in Tennesse is much different country from shooting an Elk at 9000 feet in Idaho.

I will keep learning, and thanks for your information. Hopefully others will learn too.
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Lochi

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Elkgunner,
I approve of your philosophy of "seize the moment", I really do.

Here's mine:
I have found through the years that a person is not "a nice guy because he is a hunter", as someone might remark. Neither cause he is a fisherman, or a surfer or a canoeist, or ……. The definitive reason that makes you click with a total stranger is that OUTDOORS categorisation. I frequently find scuba divers or spearfishermen who suddenly stop diving and develop a passion for hiking, or fishing, ….. Or a keen skydiver who suddenly wants to start hunting, or sailing. He had been fishing for years, you just did not know that, since at the skydiving club one talks mainly about parachutes. And so we can go on and on siting examples of people who are either outdoor enthusiasts or not.
Having said that, here is a test you can use on others to determine if they are real "hunters", like we all claim to be when we start talking about the ethics and the what-nots and that stuff: you ask him what other interests he has besides hunting. If the answer is somewhat outdoorish, he passes the test. If his other interests are reading, stamp collection, public speaking, music, history and the likes, he might be on his way to fail by your (or shall I rather say my) perception of what a "hunter" is. The final acid test now lies in what he has on the wall. If he has an impressive display of one species of each of record-book trophies, the ice gets thinner. If he now tells you that his total numbers of hours actually spent in the bush is not much, but the results are so impressive, then you know that you have a "trophy collector" on your hands, not a "hunter".

Ooops!! Now, just before I get my head bitten of, let's play safe and say that the above is not generalising, but usually the case. (How's that for running away!)

Don't worry about your African safari Elkgunner. If you only do it in 2006, then you do it again in 2008 and again in …… Meanwhile, never ever sit out on a free-bee hunt like those you have lined up. Africa can wait.

Enjoy, seize the moment, life is a gift, be thankful!

Lochi.

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