The math doesn’t work. Draw nothing versus having a chance at one draw.
Time to play politics. Help me move these rule changes through the process at IDFG.
- Thread starter 44hunter45
- Start date
MtnElk
Well-known member
I just can't understand - and I get that everyone has their opinion - why you would do ANYTHING to lower draw odds for yourself as a Resident. It's an OIL tag, you want it bad enough, don't apply for the rest. Gives you better draw odds for both OIL and others by drawing that line. Especially with truly random odds.
I love that you can't apply for a bighorn point / hunt and a desert hunt here in CO. Make your bed and lie in it...
I love that you can't apply for a bighorn point / hunt and a desert hunt here in CO. Make your bed and lie in it...
perma
Well-known member
Agreed, I just think there’s gotta be some sort of way to think about what you’re doing before you apply for a big tag like that. I don’t know what that really looks like, but that’s the best I got.
Draw nothing only applying for a sheep tag or draw nothing applying for sheep, antelope and elk.
I’m just saying that I would like to be able to put in for all the species I want to hunt despite the odds being low. Right now I have to choose what I want to apply for more than the other.
I’m just saying that I would like to be able to put in for all the species I want to hunt despite the odds being low. Right now I have to choose what I want to apply for more than the other.
MtnElk
Well-known member
Isn't that premise of like everything in life?
You need to study draw odds. Some of the draw odds for Idaho trophy species are spectacular. I’ve seen 1 in 7 odds for a goat unit. Those odds will become 1 in 200 with this idea.
In my case, I put in for 14 consecutive years for moose because I wanted a moose more than I wanted antelope or controlled elk hunt. All the while craving an antelope hunt. Odds are that I could have drawn an antelope tag or two during that time. I made my choice and don’t regret it a bit but I don’t think it’s too much to ask for an opportunity to apply for multiple species.
I fully understand the impact of reducing the odds. I’m just saying that bad odds are better than no odds. I’ve lived the no odds option and it sucks.
GrantK
Well-known member
Exactly, anyone supporting this needs to actually run the math of allowing all the people who currently choose other species to apply for all, it would put any chance of drawing a big 3 tag in your lifetime to essentially zero... whereas if you pick carefully with the current system you can probably draw all 3...
MtnElk
Well-known member
I hear that, but you're also not precluded from hunting elk after you find out you didn't get moose - right? You just couldn't get a controlled tag
If you are looking at the impact this would have, look at Randy's MSG chart in CO for when we switched from pay upfront to pay if you play... its a nearly vertical line in jump in applications. This essentially does the same thing for you guys in Idaho. Its a slippery slope
44hunter45
Well-known member
And yet I know goat hunters who have stopped applying because the goat numbers are so far down.
Full disclosure - I'm old and bitter. Years of watching others draw and shoot moose (some more than one per tag) have left me bitter. Watching videos of product endorsed yahoos doing the Jack O'Connor spray and pray on gorgeous rams has left me bitter. I see locals who draw a OIL tag and appear to not even care about it. They road hunt and shoot dinks.
I get that you shoot a dink after you've put in serious effort, but to not even try? WTF even apply? Get out of the way for someone serious about it. I get hit up via DM by NR tag holders asking me how to fill their moose tag in my GMU.
I'm not hating on those who draw a great tag and work it hard. The 2023 Super Hunt thread was amazing. That guy worked his ass off and killed some amazing animals. Good for him.
I'm in the same place as @Elktrack , except we are talking about more than 20 years of applying for moose. I'm 62 and all the exercise in the world isn't slowing the entropy. I'm fading fast. I will sure as heck hunt it hard if I got the tag, but I may kill me. Its simply that time is against me in terms of good hunting years ahead of me.
I firmly believe that I will not draw a moose tag in the active years left to me. The fact that I as long as I keep applying for moose, I have no hope of a premium controlled hunt elk tag or any rifle pronghorn tag either stings more every year.
I have essentially put in all the best hunting years available to me without drawing a big three. I'm not afraid to work for it. I'm regularly applying in the best odds units Filtering2.0 says to try. Those are backcountry units. I have the damned things in my yard but I will never draw a tag for one in my home GMU. I still have a sheep or goat hunt in me, but not for much longer.
I did not consider the draw odds in my proposal because to me they are essentially already infinitesimal. Recruitment rates for the Big Three in Idaho are not good. This is a diminishing resource. Seeing as many of you are so invested, I may withdraw the proposal.
If this was only about upping my odds I would be proposing no NR opportunity. I'm not.
Some of you have already filled a OIL tag, good on you. A lot of us have not. Just want to hear you say it. Keep applying for big three while the chances of drawing either a big three or any pronghorn or quality deer or elk hunt fade away.
Meanwhile, the legislature wants to hand Big Three tags to outfitted NR hunters just because they shot an F'ing wolf? The Legislature appears to care two shits about the odds of resident hunters.
So if, as @Big Fin would say, we need to make the pie bigger, my next proposal will be that we move to Alaskan tag punching rules for Big Three in Idaho. Hell, for all big game.
Draw blood and you are done. Punch your tag and go home. Be sure to leave your pocket money with the local businesses on the way out. Folks are shooting more than they are tagging. Quotas are so small, that quite literally means fewer tags being issued.
Matthew57
Active member
Regardless of the system, hope this is the year you draw as I know you'd do the tag justice. I've seen some of the same videos and it's definitely enough to piss you off and this year's move by the legislature is just ridiculous.
I’m not against the idea but would have concerns of/if wardens could enforce it.
Another idea to shrink the draw pool is to extend wait periods for successful people. 5 years for trophy and 3 years for elk, deer and antelope.
Carnage2011
Well-known member
Definitely wouldn’t support #2. That’s a quick way to tank draw odds. Life has tough decisions…sorry.
cgasner1
Well-known member
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Sucks for you should have kept with it. My father in law had the same problem then he drew his moose. Then 2 years later his goat then like the year after that his sheep. The odds are high for a reason. We can apply for it all in Montana it’s not all it’s cracked up to be.
BAKPAKR
Well-known member
@44hunter45, even though some seasons extend beyond the end of the year, don’t the bag limits represent what you can take from 1/1 to 12/31? Having a license year not match the bag limit year could cause issues. In single bear units, would I be able to shoot only one bear in the 7/1 to 6/30 license year or would I be able to shoot two - one in the first six months of the license (fall) and one in the second (spring) since the license covers parts of two calendar years? If was able to shoot two in the license year and did, would that preclude me from buying a bear tag during the next license year until after the end of the calendar year?
I think your proposal would also cause an issue with controlled hunts. When I apply for MSG in the 4/1 to 4/30 application period, would I have to first buy the license for the next July 1 to June 30? The same would go for deer, elk, and antelope controlled hunts with an application period that ends the first part of June.
Re the December rush on licenses, isn’t the rush just in the first few days of December when NR tags go on sale? I find it hard to believe that I couldn’t walk into The Black Sheep or Cabelas in North Idaho pretty much any time in December except for the first three days and the three or four days before Christmas and not be able to get my license for the following year in 15 minutes or so.
I think your second proposal would hurt the odds of both groups - those applying for MSG and those applying for DEA. I remember what happened when Utah changed from allowing NRs to apply for only one limited entry species and one OIL species to letting NRs apply for everything. Random draw odds plummeted.
So, I guess you could say I am against your proposals. However, I still like hearing your stories about adventures in my old haunts, so keep those coming.
I think your proposal would also cause an issue with controlled hunts. When I apply for MSG in the 4/1 to 4/30 application period, would I have to first buy the license for the next July 1 to June 30? The same would go for deer, elk, and antelope controlled hunts with an application period that ends the first part of June.
Re the December rush on licenses, isn’t the rush just in the first few days of December when NR tags go on sale? I find it hard to believe that I couldn’t walk into The Black Sheep or Cabelas in North Idaho pretty much any time in December except for the first three days and the three or four days before Christmas and not be able to get my license for the following year in 15 minutes or so.
I think your second proposal would hurt the odds of both groups - those applying for MSG and those applying for DEA. I remember what happened when Utah changed from allowing NRs to apply for only one limited entry species and one OIL species to letting NRs apply for everything. Random draw odds plummeted.
So, I guess you could say I am against your proposals. However, I still like hearing your stories about adventures in my old haunts, so keep those coming.
Elkmagnet
Well-known member
#2 is nuts idaho sells around 300k hunting licenses each year. The majority of the people in the draw are after elk and deer.
We have 41 mountain goat, 85 bighorn and under 500 moose tags. If everyone could apply for everything you wouldn't effectively have a chance.
I haven't put in for deer, elk, pronghorn in a while because I want a moose tag. It is a sacrifice for astronomically better odds.
You can't have your cake and eat it to.
We have 41 mountain goat, 85 bighorn and under 500 moose tags. If everyone could apply for everything you wouldn't effectively have a chance.
I haven't put in for deer, elk, pronghorn in a while because I want a moose tag. It is a sacrifice for astronomically better odds.
You can't have your cake and eat it to.
Elkmagnet
Well-known member
To be fair you can put in for unlimited antilope even if you do moose. Also most antilope odds are at or below moose odds in Idaho.
Elkmagnet
Well-known member
Honestly I'd love to see it 5 years for each species. It would be most useful for hunts with less than 25% draw odds and not helpful for hunts above 50% so draw a line somewhere.
This is the absolute best way to make our system (more fair) and improve odds without going the points route hurting new applicants and youth.
