Saving camping spots on dispersed public land

[fmnjr]

Following is my experience working with law enforcement on public land (any LEO please don't take it as criticism, it is not). We arrived late in the afternoon on a Friday where we were promptly hit head on by an idiot on a motorcycle riding on the wrong side of the road. Said fool was luck to be alive after, but that's another story. Called the local Sheriff's office, the officer arrived about 30 minutes later. He wrote up a report and said we could obtain it some days later. Bottom line, he did not write the moron a citation and stated his office only answers calls such as ours as a courtesy matter to see if anyone is injured and needs medical help. It seems this is SOP for any legal situation on public lands so good luck getting anyone to enforce camping time limits.

 

[mannmicj]

I participated in a thread like this before and if I recall it got locked. Perhaps because some of the knuckleheads who leave their campers all over BLM and FS land are members on here and they got a little defensive....

I HATE seeing campers parked and left all season for people to "Show up on the weekend to use them"...I have seen this in both Colorado and Wyoming in hundreds of places over the years.

Bottom line is that the FS should lay heavy fines on these people who are leaving their campers and wall tents set up unattended for longer than the allowed period.

So, I will double down on my statement from a couple years back.

In my opinion you should get a maximum of 16 days to camp in a location.

After that your belongings should be considered abandoned/garbage/trash and subject to pirate law.

I bet you people would pull their stuff home with them if they showed back up and their camper was gone after it had been sitting there for a month.....

I don't disagree with what you are saying. That said. The Forest Service is so pathetically funded these days that this will never be realistic. They simply don't have the bodies on the ground to track, document and site these people. No one wants to hear that, but it's true. It's truly amazing how outnumbered USFS Leo's are. If folks knew the truth, they would be horrified.

 

[mannmicj]

Make the fine $5000. That should pay some salaries. From what I saw there may be enough of it to even lower the cost of hunting licenses.....ok so maybe thats a stretch lol

Pay some interns $600/week to drive around following up on complaints snapping some pictures....Doesn't sound too difficult to me. Let the interns "eat what they kill" so to speak.

It would definitely send a message.

If a person is not one of the loosers leaving thier crap sitting all over then nobody should have a problem with this tactic.

You won't find many "interns" that want confrontations with armed hunters or homeless folks. This is a situation they are simply not trained for and can go sideways in a hurry.

I wonder how many times in history that the $5,000 fine has been levied in full against a single person.

Never is my guess.

It's happened. But for the most part it's folks actually living on the Forest and they don't have the means to pay the fine. The process like most things in government is cumbersome and needs to be followed perfectly or judges throw out these cases.

 

[mannmicj]

Following is my experience working with law enforcement on public land (any LEO please don't take it as criticism, it is not). We arrived late in the afternoon on a Friday where we were promptly hit head on by an idiot on a motorcycle riding on the wrong side of the road. Said fool was luck to be alive after, but that's another story. Called the local Sheriff's office, the officer arrived about 30 minutes later. He wrote up a report and said we could obtain it some days later. Bottom line, he did not write the moron a citation and stated his office only answers calls such as ours as a courtesy matter to see if anyone is injured and needs medical help. It seems this is SOP for any legal situation on public lands so good luck getting anyone to enforce camping time limits.

This is true. Think about it. The ONE FS LEO that is assigned to your National Forest, can't be everywhere at once. When that person is off for the day, on a different forest, pulled for a National assignment, etc.., there is no one to fill in for them except local or state Law Enforcement. Those folks only respond to serious crimes or accidents on the Public lands because they have other duties and jurisdiction as well.

All of these suggestions are great and the complaining is valid, but without more funding for additional USFS Leo's this problem will NEVER be fixed. It simply can't be done with the current staffing levels and it's been that way for decades.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

This is true. Think about it. The ONE FS LEO that is assigned to your National Forest, can't be everywhere at once. When that person is off for the day, on a different forest, pulled for a National assignment, etc.., there is no one to fill in for them except local or state Law Enforcement. Those folks only respond to serious crimes or accidents on the Public lands because they have other duties and jurisdiction as well.

All of these suggestions are great and the complaining is valid, but without more funding for additional USFS Leo's this problem will NEVER be fixed. It simply can't be done with the current staffing levels and it's been that way for decades.

All true... but at the same time...

Couple years ago I camped in a National Park with Livestock. The area is considered "sensitive" so you have to have a permit for livestock, only 6 animals are allowed in the area at one time. You can request a permit 90 days in advance. I went into the office in person and got my permit. This area is accessed by a closed road, close to public not to NPS staff which can drive all the way to the campsites.

I packed in, with 3 animals found someone in my assigned site with 8 horses obviously no permit. I called the NPS told office staff, left a message with the head LEO for the park, and sent email to the official indicated on my permit pictures of the 8 stock in the site. (Full cell coverage). I ended up backing out into another site that didn't require a permit, camped for a couple days. Guy was still camped when I headed out. At the gate I encountered a NPS truck with two officers, I told them about the guy. They basically said tough shit and drove away, they could have driven to his spot in 25 min.

Apparently on public land the rules don't matter.

 

[JDH]

I’ve been hunting a couple of spots in MA, I found my 14th stand Saturday. None had people in them, 2 probably were set up during archery season, the rest had been up for years, several were permanent (wood shacks). Certainly you need to adjust to the culture of places you move to, but at the same time I don’t think I will give a crap about setting up right next to an existing stand.

Same thing here. I find most of the stands haven't been used in a couple of years. One spot has an old climber that hasn't been used in years and another one that had the same limb on the seat all season a couple of years ago. I actually took one down because the straps were faded and coming apart and it was dangerous to climb. Another spot I found a ladder stand one fall that was laying on the ground with a big limb over it but in good condition. It was still there a year and a half later.

 

[MNElkNut]

Interesting (and depressing) discussion. So I think everyone is in agreement that USFS LEOs are so underfunded that is not the solution. So what is? Giving up every time someone breaks the rules? Does anyone have an idea of how to handle the situation in an appropriate manner? Pitch your tent right next to the unoccupied one? Put your tail between your legs and run? Think of your most cherished spot.....and there is a tent there a month before the season and never occupied....what would you do???

 

[mannmicj]

All true... but at the same time...

Couple years ago I camped in a National Park with Livestock. The area is considered "sensitive" so you have to have a permit for livestock, only 6 animals are allowed in the area at one time. You can request a permit 90 days in advance. I went into the office in person and got my permit. This area is accessed by a closed road, close to public not to NPS staff which can drive all the way to the campsites.

I packed in, with 3 animals found someone in my assigned site with 8 horses obviously no permit. I called the NPS told office staff, left a message with the head LEO for the park, and sent email to the official indicated on my permit pictures of the 8 stock in the site. (Full cell coverage). I ended up backing out into another site that didn't require a permit, camped for a couple days. Guy was still camped when I headed out. At the gate I encountered a NPS truck with two officers, I told them about the guy. They basically said tough shit and drove away, they could have driven to his spot in 25 min.

Apparently on public land the rules don't matter.

The National Parks Service and the United States Forest Service are two separate organizations, so that must be noted first. Also, not everyone in uniform is an "officer". A park ranger or wilderness ranger has a qualification (3 days of training) as a Forest Protection Officer (FPO). This sounds great, but they not law enforcement. Think of them more like information givers/educators and sometimes a security guard who can issue very small citations. If it was a true Federal LEO working for the NPS that told you "tough shit", that is sad and embarrassing for them, but not common place.

The fact that no one responded over the couple of days you camped isn't surprising either. Was the Park LEO even available to respond to this? Leaving a message and email is good and all you could do, but we have no idea how many messages and emails where having to be handled in front of yours. Again, it normally goes to lack of staffing. The visitors simply overwhelm the system in it's current (pathetically staffed) form.

Rules and laws on public land are like many others in life. For the most part, it's on each individual to be a good human and follow these rules and laws. To be honest, most folks do and if they make an honest mistake, they are quick to correct it once they are educated about the issue. The few jerks that break rules and laws, do so in many aspects of their life. The hope is that there is a real LEO available to handle it. It's kind of like the idiot drivers who are driving reckless as hell, speeding and disobeying traffic laws. How often do we wish a cop was around to nail them, yet it's rare. These type of things frustrate those of us who do our very best to follow all rules and laws while on public land. This makes some feel like these rules and laws don't matter, because we don't see the citations or contacts made by law enforcement. They do matter and luckily most folks are good people.

 

[Bambistew]

We should also have a 14 day period for trail cameras/trash too.

 

[mannmicj]

Interesting (and depressing) discussion. So I think everyone is in agreement that USFS LEOs are so underfunded that is not the solution. So what is? Giving up every time someone breaks the rules? Does anyone have an idea of how to handle the situation in an appropriate manner? Pitch your tent right next to the unoccupied one? Put your tail between your legs and run? Think of your most cherished spot.....and there is a tent there a month before the season and never occupied....what would you do???

First, no one OWNS the right to a particular dispersed site. It would be called private property in that case. Some folks don't care how long you or your family has hunted there. It's public land and if they get there first, sorry.... That doesn't mean leave your camp up weeks ahead of time unoccupied.

Over the years, my dad and I started scouting out 3 or 4 camp spots so we had options and it was less frustrating when our favorite location wasn't available. It also saved us time searching out another.

As users of public land, we have all come up with these unwritten rules. Like, you can't camp close to me or in my families annual spot. You can't fish right next to me in the lake. This is my spot. Most of this comes down to commonsense and simply manners. Also there is a difference between what is rule and law, or just a personal preference and ethics.

The people I camp with have no interest in: camping, hunting or fishing right on top of someone, nor do we set up camp weeks ahead of time. Unfortunately, some folks don't agree and feel entitled to do what they want while on public land. You know this person, "This is mine, I pay taxes for this. I'll do whatever I want.s" Blah blah blah.

Personally, I can't stand the general public and I am one Public land is one of those places were a mix of personalities, beliefs, and ethics all come together. As a user I accept that not everyone will agree with my thinking, nor will I agree with theirs.

The older I get the less I want to let someone else ruin my experience. So I give myself options. One might be to talk with the individuals, you might be surprised how understanding they are. Or you find out quick, you don't want to be anywhere near them. In that case, I've scouted out those alternative camp spots and I'm good to go.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

The National Parks Service and the United States Forest Service are two separate organizations, so that must be noted first. Also, not everyone in uniform is an "officer". A park ranger or wilderness ranger has a qualification (3 days of training) as a Forest Protection Officer (FPO). This sounds great, but they not law enforcement. Think of them more like information givers/educators and sometimes a security guard who can issue very small citations. If it was a true Federal LEO working for the NPS that told you "tough shit", that is sad and embarrassing for them, but not common place.

The fact that no one responded over the couple of days you camped isn't surprising either. Was the Park LEO even available to respond to this? Leaving a message and email is good and all you could do, but we have no idea how many messages and emails where having to be handled in front of yours. Again, it normally goes to lack of staffing. The visitors simply overwhelm the system in it's current (pathetically staffed) form.

Rules and laws on public land are like many others in life. For the most part, it's on each individual to be a good human and follow these rules and laws. To be honest, most folks do and if they make an honest mistake, they are quick to correct it once they are educated about the issue. The few jerks that break rules and laws, do so in many aspects of their life. The hope is that there is a real LEO available to handle it. It's kind of like the idiot drivers who are driving reckless as hell, speeding and disobeying traffic laws. How often do we wish a cop was around to nail them, yet it's rare. These type of things frustrate those of us who do our very best to follow all rules and laws while on public land. This makes some feel like these rules and laws don't matter, because we don't see the citations or contacts made by law enforcement. They do matter and luckily most folks are good people.

I know the difference, my dad was a ranger for the USFS, as you said not law enforcement. These were NPS LEOs they carried sidearms/tasers/radios, this was at the access gate of a National Park, it was not national forest. It was sad and embarrassing.

I still have the pics and email saved, it was sent on a Monday, during business hours. Sat October 12, 2019 I sent a text via inreach (saved to the email of the head ranger), then climbed up on the ridge where I had service and sent photos and another email.

No response was ever given.

I pack out on Monday October 14, 2019, at approximated 11:15am and reached the gate, called the office and left 2 voice mails one at the backcountry office, another with the head ranger ( I can provide you with his name, number, and email but won't blast him on the open forum).
not exactly peak season slammed with visitors.

At the parking lot/ trailhead on October 14, 2019 at around 11:15am, I encountered said LEOs and told them of the circumstances and showed them pictures. They said they couldn't do anything and left.

You have to check in, in person for this location and get a permit during park business hours (Friday). I called on Tuesday once I was back at home and the agent at the desk said I had the only permit for the past 4 days.

Point being, this is in the boundary of a heavily used national park, with road access and law enforcement on hand that were provided numerous notifications and evidence. They did crap, good luck on USFS or BLM with people violating rules.

-Colorado

 

[rwc101]

Maybe make more roads maintenance level 1 on USFS? At least keep the camper parkers limited to the main roads and not as dispersed throughout the forest.

 

[mannmicj]

I know the difference, my dad was a ranger for the USFS, as you said not law enforcement. These were NPS LEOs they carried sidearms/tasers/radios, this was at the access gate of a National Park, it was not national forest. It was sad and embarrassing.

I still have the pics and email saved, it was sent on a Monday, during business hours. Sat October 12, 2019 I sent a text via inreach (saved to the email of the head ranger), then climbed up on the ridge where I had service and sent photos and another email.

No response was ever given.

I pack out on Monday October 14, 2019, at approximated 11:15am and reached the gate, called the office and left 2 voice mails one at the backcountry office, another with the head ranger ( I can provide you with his name, number, and email but won't blast him on the open forum).
not exactly peak season slammed with visitors.

At the parking lot/ trailhead on October 14, 2019 at around 11:15am, I encountered said LEOs and told them of the circumstances and showed them pictures. They said they couldn't do anything and left.

You have to check in, in person for this location and get a permit during park business hours (Friday). I called on Tuesday once I was back at home and the agent at the desk said I had the only permit for the past 4 days.

Point being, this is in the boundary of a heavily used national park, with road access and law enforcement on hand that were provided numerous notifications and evidence. They did crap, good luck on USFS or BLM with people violating rules.

-Colorado

Yep. That is sad and pathetic. A pure example of laziness and incompetence in regards to that specific National Park. Over the years, I've known some great LEOs and none of them would have ignored your reports with zero follow up with you. Even if they are slammed and can't get out ASAP, they were always good about following up with the person who reported the issue.

Unfortunately, violators don't fear getting caught. The odds are more likely they get away with whatever it is than actually being sited. It is the reality. For me, I try to educate and share information with folks when I bump into them on public land, but in the end some folks are just jerks and could care less about rules. It will always be out there on some level and it's something over the years folks learn to accept. That doesn't make it right. I've hunted roadless areas only to have an ATV rip right through my stand, hell sometimes even pickups. There is a small percentage of folks who will constantly push the envelope.

 

[rtraverdavis]

On a slightly different note but part of the same overall issue is something @mannmicj alluded to—homeless camps. In central Oregon there are dispersed public land spots that have people living on them year-round. The trash and shit build-up is immense. One such site is on BLM across the river from where my folks live, and has had the same broken-down motorhome and tents on it since March. People live there full time. This is yards above a designated wild and scenic river. Call BLM—many times—no response. Call local sheriff’s dept—get told it’s a BLM issue. I feel for the situation these folks are living in (assuming that they are actually trying to get back on their feet) but the ecological impact of these camps is pretty astounding. Illegality of camping in one spot for that length of time aside, with no water/sewer/trash services all that waste just gets piled up and damages the ecosystem—especially the riparian areas.

Hopefully the public land agencies get some much needed funding with this new administration, though as others have said, it’s not a priority to most people. I’ve got no idea what to do about the homeless crisis I’ve seen explode since the pandemic started though.

 

[mannmicj]

On a slightly different note but part of the same overall issue is something @mannmicj alluded to—homeless camps. In central Oregon there are dispersed public land spots that have people living on them year-round. The trash and shit build-up is immense. One such site is on BLM across the river from where my folks live, and has had the same broken-down motorhome and tents on it since March. People live there full time. This is yards above a designated wild and scenic river. Call BLM—many times—no response. Call local sheriff’s dept—get told it’s a BLM issue. I feel for the situation these folks are living in (assuming that they are actually trying to get back on their feet) but the ecological impact of these camps is pretty astounding. Illegality of camping in one spot for that length of time aside, with no water/sewer/trash services all that waste just gets piled up and damages the ecosystem—especially the riparian areas.

Hopefully the public land agencies get some much needed funding with this new administration, though as others have said, it’s not a priority to most people. I’ve got no idea what to do about the homeless crisis I’ve seen explode since the pandemic started though.

These are the most difficult of all for the BLM and FS Leo's. The documentation a court requires is insane. Often it must go to court for the Leo to get a judgement for the camp to be removed/torn down. So many have been thrown out of court because of a technicality it's unreal (a missed day seeing the occupants). Talk about deflating to the LEOs who literally spent months trying to get a site cleaned, not to mention the public's disappointment. I live in Eastern Oregon as well and it's only getting worse every year.

That said, I have seen some get removed (aka, torn down and thrown into a 30 yard dumpster). Often the tents are filled will needles, so it's not an easy cleanup. Very dangerous at times and absolutely disgusting living conditions in many cases.

The entire topic has so many tentacles. Just a mess overall.