Relax, Everything is Going to be Okay!

[406dn]

Fair enough. But using the logistical problems your wife encountered as a basis for an opinion that voter ID will "disenfranchise millions of american" (sic) is more than a bit of a stretch. If millions of americans can't get a voter ID because local (or state or federal) government is that inept/irresponsible with respect to processing paperwork requests, then we have a far bigger problem than voter ID. And to be sure, the processing delays your wife experienced can easily be experienced by a man (and not just middle class white dudes) looking to get an official birth certificate or other similar government issued document. So not sure why only women voters would be more impacted than 'men' voters.

I recently took both of my parents in to get RealIDs in Arizona. It took one hour and $25 each to get just an AZ state-issued ID that fully meets any Voter ID requirement that has been proposed. AZ may be cheap compared to other states so this may be a unique, one-off, case but I find it to be a hollow argument that cost of an ID is prohibitive and disenfranchising in nature. YMMV.

It is far more common for women to change their surname during their lifetime. If her last name changes from Jones to Smith, this sort of law impacts her.

 

[Alpine01]

Unless states scale up requests for vital records, and they certainly could, I have a hard time envisioning processing times will decrease if requests increase. States/municipalities have been upfront that it would be a months long process. I'm not sure it is indicative of a "far bigger problem" or just lacking priority for them, so feel free to elaborate there if you want.

Nothing stopping states from scaling up their processing to shorten response times, particularly if it now has a direct bearing on their citizens ability to vote going forward. Your state/local Govt works for you, if it is a priority to you and your fellow state/local citizens, then it becomes a priority to them. Start holding them accountable.

I don't find it difficult to think of local families that might struggle to spare money for documents and upgrading unexpired driver's licenses. Worst case (both parents) and low/average numbers for a husband and wife, $25 each for a certified birth certificate, $15 for a marriage license, and $50 each (Montana price) for the Real ID comes to $165 for the family pretty quick. Depending on the state, I'm sure it can exceed that.

SAVE Act doesn't require all three. For a man who hasn't changed his name (there is a non-zero fraction that have), a birth certificate is all that is needed. If they don't already have that (and a large percentage should already have one given the need to use it for other ID purposes such as a MT drivers license), then yes, they are out $25 per your numbers. For a woman, at worst it is $40 for the birth certificate and marriage license if they have managed to lose or damage both of these documents. Still a pretty small price to pay one time but that is only my perspective.

 

[Hunting Wife]

So not sure why only women voters would be more impacted than 'men' voters.

I recently took both of my parents in to get RealIDs in Arizona. It took one hour and $25 each to get just an AZ state-issued ID that fully meets any Voter ID requirement that has been proposed. AZ may be cheap compared to other states so this may be a unique, one-off, case but I find it to be a hollow argument that cost of an ID is prohibitive and disenfranchising in nature. YMMV.

I’m curious to know the average length of time and cost it takes for men to get their documentation all changed over after they get married?

Real ID is irrelevant in this discussion because it is not a proof of citizenship. ICE won’t accept it as proof of citizenship, so I highly doubt it would be acceptable under the SAVE Act.

 

[Alpine01]

It is far more common for women to change their surname during their lifetime. If her last name changes from Jones to Smith, this sort of law impacts her.

No disagreement. So what? The effort to go through the process of legally changing one's surname is far more cumbersome than saving or obtaining the certificate that shows you did it.

 

[Alpine01]

I’m curious to know the average length of time and cost it takes for men to get their documentation all changed over after they get married?

Real ID is irrelevant in this discussion because it is not a proof of citizenship. ICE won’t accept it as proof of citizenship, so I highly doubt it would be acceptable under the SAVE Act.

H.R. 22 - SAVE Act
Sec.2.b. - Documentary proof of United States citizenship.—As used in this Act, the term ‘documentary proof of United States citizenship’ means, with respect to an applicant for voter registration, any of the following:
“(1) A form of identification issued consistent with the requirements of the REAL ID Act of 2005 that indicates the applicant is a citizen of the United States.
“(2) A valid United States passport.
“(3) The applicant's official United States military identification card, together with a United States military record of service showing that the applicant's place of birth was in the United States.
“(4) A valid government-issued photo identification card issued by a Federal, State or Tribal government showing that the applicant’s place of birth was in the United States.
“(5) A valid government-issued photo identification card issued by a Federal, State or Tribal government other than an identification described in paragraphs (1) through (4), but only if presented together with one or more of the following:
“(A) A certified birth certificate issued by a State, a unit of local government in a State, or a Tribal government which—
“(i) was issued by the State, unit of local government, or Tribal government in which the applicant was born;
“(ii) was filed with the office responsible for keeping vital records in the State;
“(iii) includes the full name, date of birth, and place of birth of the applicant;
“(iv) lists the full names of one or both of the parents of the applicant;
“(v) has the signature of an individual who is authorized to sign birth certificates on behalf of the State, unit of local government, or Tribal government in which the applicant was born;
“(vi) includes the date that the certificate was filed with the office responsible for keeping vital records in the State; and
“(vii) has the seal of the State, unit of local government, or Tribal government that issued the birth certificate.

 

[406dn]

Not too many then, from what I can see. If I were a conspiracy theorist (just kidding I totally am) I would've thought the democrats were working with trump the way they helped him win the last one.

Speaking as a disgruntled Democrat, I'd put a lot of the blame at Biden's feet.

He was very late to the party concerning border security.

His debate performance removed any doubt that he was greatly diminished.

His last minute exit left the party scrambling on how to choose a candidate.

He missed a GOLDEN opportunity to be seen as a statesman and render Trump irrelevant. He should have announced after the mid terms in 2022 that he was only serving one term. Then he should have said it is time for the next generation to lead our nation. That would have painted Trump as being too old. It would have given both parties the chance for a rigorous primary contest. We will never know how that might have played out. I don't see how it could have turned out this poorly.

So, I will never forgive Biden for putting his ego before his country.

 

[Wildabeest]

Interesting ...

I can ask AI whether AZ RealID is valid and get the following:

Yes, an Arizona Travel ID can serve as proof of citizenship, as it complies with federal REAL ID requirements. It is accepted for identification purposes, including at TSA airport security checkpoints.

Arizona Travel ID and Proof of Citizenship​

What is the Arizona Travel ID?​

The Arizona Travel ID is a state-issued identification that complies with federal REAL ID mandates. It serves as a valid form of identification for domestic air travel and is available as both a driver's license and an identification card.

Proof of Citizenship Requirements​

To use the Arizona Travel ID as proof of citizenship, you must meet specific criteria:

• Arizona Driver's License or ID: If issued after October 1, 1996, it can serve as proof of citizenship without needing additional documents.
• Birth Certificate: A legible copy of your birth certificate can verify citizenship if your driver's license does not indicate citizenship.

Per MSN:

Which documents are accepted as proof of U.S. citizenship?​

— A REAL ID-compliant driver’s license that “indicates the applicant is a citizen.”
— A valid U.S. passport.
— A military ID card with a military record of service that lists the applicant’s birthplace as in the U.S.
— A valid government-issued photo ID that shows the applicant’s birthplace was in the U.S.
— A valid government-issued photo ID accompanied by a document, such as a certified birth certificate, confirming a U.S. birthplace.


Per AZ state government:

What is required to get an AZ RealID card

Overview of Arizona Real ID​

The Arizona Real ID is a state-issued identification that complies with federal standards set by the REAL ID Act of 2005. It is available as both a driver's license and an identification card. A gold star on the card indicates that it meets the necessary federal requirements for identification.

Requirements for Obtaining a Real ID​

Necessary Documents​

To apply for an Arizona Real ID, you need to provide:

• Proof of Identity:
  
  • Original or certified birth certificate
  • Unexpired U.S. passport or passport card
• Social Security Number:
  
  • No document needed, but you must provide your complete Social Security number.
• Proof of Arizona Residency:
  
  • Two documents from different sources showing your name and current Arizona address, such as:
    
    • Utility bill
    • Bank statements
    • Insurance policy

I do need to clarify that my parents got the enhanced version which has the US citizen designation so in that respect, my bad for not stating that in the first place. Still, it was a pretty simple process.

That’s because the SAVE Act is not yet law. So AI is answering in the present context vs. post SAVE Act.

 

[Hunting Wife]

H.R. 22 - SAVE Act
Sec.2.b. - Documentary proof of United States citizenship.—As used in this Act, the term ‘documentary proof of United States citizenship’ means, with respect to an applicant for voter registration, any of the following:
“(1) A form of identification issued consistent with the requirements of the REAL ID Act of 2005 that indicates the applicant is a citizen of the United States.
“(2) A valid United States passport.
“(3) The applicant's official United States military identification card, together with a United States military record of service showing that the applicant's place of birth was in the United States.
“(4) A valid government-issued photo identification card issued by a Federal, State or Tribal government showing that the applicant’s place of birth was in the United States.
“(5) A valid government-issued photo identification card issued by a Federal, State or Tribal government other than an identification described in paragraphs (1) through (4), but only if presented together with one or more of the following:
“(A) A certified birth certificate issued by a State, a unit of local government in a State, or a Tribal government which—
“(i) was issued by the State, unit of local government, or Tribal government in which the applicant was born;
“(ii) was filed with the office responsible for keeping vital records in the State;
“(iii) includes the full name, date of birth, and place of birth of the applicant;
“(iv) lists the full names of one or both of the parents of the applicant;
“(v) has the signature of an individual who is authorized to sign birth certificates on behalf of the State, unit of local government, or Tribal government in which the applicant was born;
“(vi) includes the date that the certificate was filed with the office responsible for keeping vital records in the State; and
“(vii) has the seal of the State, unit of local government, or Tribal government that issued the birth certificate.

And your point would be…?

Also from the AI overlord:

A REAL ID acts as proof of lawful presence in the U.S. and identity, but it is not definitive proof of U.S. citizenship, as it is also available to eligible non-citizens. To obtain one, applicants must provide documents showing lawful status, such as a U.S. birth certificate, U.S. passport, or Certificate of Naturalization.
Key Details Regarding Citizenship and REAL ID:

• Lawful Status: While U.S. citizens can use a passport or birth certificate, lawful non-citizens may use permanent resident cards or other valid visa documents to get a REAL ID.
• Not a Passport: A REAL ID confirms you were legally present at the time of application, but it is not a substitute for a passport for international travel.
• Requirements: Applicants must provide, in person, documents for: Full legal name, date of birth, Social Security number, two proofs of address, and lawful status.

 

[Alpine01]

That’s because the SAVE Act is not yet law. So AI is answering in the present context vs. post SAVE Act.

Two things - 1) I wouldn't solely rely on AI for any bit of information (nor MSN but that is a different conversation) and 2) the proposed SAVE act references the REAL ID Act of 2005 which is now 20+ years old.

Beyond that, I am not tracking your response. Per AZ Govt, their RealID fully complies with the REAL ID Act of 2005 and their enhanced version meets proof of US citizenship as I noted in my response. The fact that both you and I got very different responses from an internet AI search assistant merely shows the danger of relying on AI. Please elaborate if necessary.

 

[Alpine01]

And your point would be…?

Also from the AI overlord:

A REAL ID acts as proof of lawful presence in the U.S. and identity, but it is not definitive proof of U.S. citizenship, as it is also available to eligible non-citizens. To obtain one, applicants must provide documents showing lawful status, such as a U.S. birth certificate, U.S. passport, or Certificate of Naturalization.
Key Details Regarding Citizenship and REAL ID:

• Lawful Status: While U.S. citizens can use a passport or birth certificate, lawful non-citizens may use permanent resident cards or other valid visa documents to get a REAL ID.
• Not a Passport: A REAL ID confirms you were legally present at the time of application, but it is not a substitute for a passport for international travel.
• Requirements: Applicants must provide, in person, documents for: Full legal name, date of birth, Social Security number, two proofs of address, and lawful status.

Look up enhanced RealID. Then combine with H.R. 22 below (bold and italics are mine for emphasis). That's the point. You stated RealID is irrelevant. H.R. 22 says otherwise.
H.R. 22 - SAVE Act Sec.2.b. - Documentary proof of United States citizenship.—As used in this Act, the term ‘documentary proof of United States citizenship’ means, with respect to an applicant for voter registration, any of the following:
“(1) A form of identification issued consistent with the requirements of the REAL ID Act of 2005 that indicates the applicant is a citizen of the United States.

Also, per H.R. 22, one can use a regular state issued ID (e.g., driver's license, non-enhanced RealID, etc.) in combination with a birth certificate to prove US citizenship.

Finally, the AI overlord is not a reliable source of information. I would encourage you to dig a little deeper.

 

[Nick87]

So, I will never forgive Biden for putting his ego before his country.

Idk if it was his ego necessarily. Thats an entirely different conversation. But I'm glad to see a partisan democrat at least acknowledge it. Would've been pretty easy to beat Trump if they'd of ran any one somewhere even a smidgen close to center of left with even a handful of brain cells. My big question is why didnt they?

 

[406dn]

Idk if it was his ego necessarily. Thats an entirely different conversation. But I'm glad to see a partisan democrat at least acknowledge it. Would've been pretty easy to beat Trump if they'd of ran any one somewhere even a smidgen close to center of left with even a handful of brain cells. My big question is why didnt they?

I think it was mostly ego. His presidential political ambition went back decades. A standard measure of a successful presidency is being re-elected.

He hinted during his run in 2020 that he was a bridge to the future. Somewhere along the line, he, his staff, or he and his staff convinced him that a second term was good idea. Something I only considered fairly recently is how senior staff only holds their power, if the president is in power. If Biden steps aside, many of them are losing whatever power they yield. It was obvious that he was/is a very frail man. It was painful to watch him walk. His mental acuity was concealed as much as possible. The debate pulled back the curtain on a very big stage. It was no longer possible to pretend otherwise.

He certainly set Democrats up to fail. That said, every election is a binary choice. We have made the choice. Trump gave a clear preview of how another term would play out, with how he handled his departure from his first term.

None of what is happening is a surprise to me.

 

[Nick87]

I think it was mostly ego. His presidential political ambition went back decades. A standard measure of a successful presidency is being re-elected.

He hinted during his run in 2020 that he was a bridge to the future. Somewhere along the line, he, his staff, or he and his staff convinced him that a second term was good idea. Something I only considered fairly recently is how senior staff only holds their power, if the president is in power. If Biden steps aside, many of them are losing whatever power they yield. It was obvious that he was/is a very frail man. It was painful to watch him walk. His mental acuity was concealed as much as possible. The debate pulled back the curtain on a very big stage. It was no longer possible to pretend otherwise.

He certainly set Democrats up to fail. That said, every election is a binary choice. We have made the choice. Trump gave a clear preview of how another term would play out, with how he handled his departure from his first term.

None of what is happening is a surprise to me.

Not much to argue with there.

 

[Bonasababy]

Speaking as a disgruntled Democrat, I'd put a lot of the blame at Biden's feet.

He was very late to the party concerning border security.

His debate performance removed any doubt that he was greatly diminished.

His last minute exit left the party scrambling on how to choose a candidate.

He missed a GOLDEN opportunity to be seen as a statesman and render Trump irrelevant. He should have announced after the mid terms in 2022 that he was only serving one term. Then he should have said it is time for the next generation to lead our nation. That would have painted Trump as being too old. It would have given both parties the chance for a rigorous primary contest. We will never know how that might have played out. I don't see how it could have turned out this poorly.

So, I will never forgive Biden for putting his ego before his country.

I think not so much his ego, it was the people around him who saw the decline but said nothing.