Redding Type S Bushing Dies

[jryoung]

I have a full length bushing die for my 7 rem mag that I started using. However it doesn't seem to size the whole neck.

I have the right blushing size
It is secure in the die with just the slightest rattle to "self center".
No matter how I set my die, flush to the shell holder, minus a quarter turn or overcammed a quarter I one get contact on three quarters of the neck. The base is .002 larger than the top.

I don't see any other way to move the die to have the neck move into the bushing more. Maybe I just need a straight neck die?

 

[p_ham]

Design flaw of the type S die. It will only do about 75% of the neck.

 

[winmag]

I’ve noticed the same thing. It really annoys my OCD side but the loads are still very accurate.

I don’t bother with bushing dies anymore unless it’s a custom tight necked chamber where I’ll be turning the necks. This is only relevant for benchrest guns and definitely not something I’d want on a hunting rifle that is subjected to rain, dirt, and grit.

 

[jryoung]

I have a bushing die for my mashburn and I don't get the same issue so that's why I bought one for my rem mag. I guess I'll go back to regular dies.

 

[ImBillT]

I prefer to size only a portion of the neck unless I’m prepping cases to be neck turned.

There is a fair chance that you oversized that case to the point that it will have excessive head space in your rifle. I would throw that case in the trash, and setup your die to size the case just barely enough for an easy bolt close. There are various ways to measure this that I don’t feel like going into at the moment.

 

[lifesupport4u]

Panhandle Precision has a good videos on YouTube and info on his website about the Type S bushing die.

How much neck tension are you trying to achieve?

 

[ImBillT]

There are reasons to size the entire neck and reasons not to. Why do you want to size more than 3/4 of the neck?

 

[jryoung]

I prefer to size only a portion of the neck unless I’m prepping cases to be neck turned.

There is a fair chance that you oversized that case to the point that it will have excessive head space in your rifle. I would throw that case in the trash, and setup your die to size the case just barely enough for an easy bolt close. There are various ways to measure this that I don’t feel like going into at the moment.

I measure headspace when resizing. I won't load this case, but even still the headspace hasn't been bumped excessively.

As to the later comment about sizing the entire neck, I figured covering more of the neck would provide more consistent tension especially with bullets with cannelures like hammers or barnes LRX.

 

[ImBillT]

I measure headspace when resizing. I won't load this case, but even still the headspace hasn't been bumped excessively.

As to the later comment about sizing the entire neck, I figured covering more of the neck would provide more consistent tension especially with bullets with cannelures like hammers or barnes LRX.

Sizing the entire offers no increase in consistency. Can lead ti potential problems as the brass from the shoulder area migrates into the neck after repeated reloading. Just something to keep your eye on, but not something most people ever need to worry about.

Sizing a portion of the neck leaves an unsized portion to center your cartridge in the chamber.

Compare that case you cammed way over on to a fired but unsized case. Usually when you get to camming a press over you are really way to short for a factory chamber. Not always though.

 

[cahunter805]

Like stated it is a design flaw of using a bushing die but seems to have no effect on my handloads.
I wouldn’t worry about it JR but if you want the entire neck resized you would need a regular neck die. Then you might run into the problem of when it sizes the entire neck then it’s bumping your shoulders to far.

 

[jryoung]

Compare that case you cammed way over on to a fired but unsized case. Usually when you get to camming a press over you are really way to short for a factory chamber. Not always though.

I did, was pretty surprised it wasn't bumped more, but understanding better now, I'll just resize with the 3/4 neck coverage and see how it goes with accuracy,

 

[ImBillT]

Like stated it is a design flaw of using a bushing die but seems to have no effect on my handloads.
I wouldn’t worry about it JR but if you want the entire neck resized you would need a regular neck die. Then you might run into the problem of when it sizes the entire neck then it’s bumping your shoulders to far.

It’s not a design “flaw”. It’s exactly how that die was intentionally designed.

 

[ImBillT]

I did, was pretty surprised it wasn't bumped more, but understanding better now, I'll just resize with the 3/4 neck coverage and see how it goes with accuracy,

It will have no negative impacts on accuracy POTENTIAL, but changing neck tension is like changing any other part of your load.

 

[jryoung]

changing neck tension is like changing any other part of your load.

I would have never guessed that

 

[ImBillT]

I would have never guessed that

Perhaps that seems obvious, but if I say “sizing 3/4 of your neck instead of all of it will have no negative impacts on accuracy” without that caveat, and someone shoots a good group with full length sized brass, then sizes 3/4 of the neck and shoots a crap group, they can run their mouth that I have no idea what I’m talking about. Changing neck tension(whether by bushing diameter, expander diameter, or how far down the neck is sized) can throw a load out of tune. That doesn’t mean that the change was a bad change.


Sizing 3/4 of the neck instead of all of it, will be neutral to positive. Outside of a cartridge with an extremely short neck, if sizing the whole neck helps anything, you probably have a problem that should be cured by other means.

 

[winmag]

Theoretically, I think there is a benefit to having more surface area of the neck gripping the projectile on a hunting rifle that is subjected to some level of abuse. This doesn't matter for a target/benchrest rifle. The loaded round goes from reloading bench, into padded case, onto the shooting bench, single fed into the chamber.

As said by others above, sizing only a portion of the neck does eliminate some problems that can arise at the neck/shoulder junction like the donut and avoids work stress on the brass in that area. Also, if you're not sizing the body of the case, and you're only sizing a portion of the neck, then the unsized portion of the neck will be fireformed to the chamber just like the body, resulting in a more precise fit.

One other thought: If the engineers that created the cartridge only intended for you to size 3/4 of the neck for tension on the projectile, then why didn't they just shorten it by 1/4 and increase case capacity? I think Redding could put a paragraph regarding why one might choose to only size a portion of the neck on the instructions included with the die to eliminate the numerous calls they must get related to why their bushing dies don't size the whole neck.

Having said all that, I have never had an issue with inadequate neck tension using bushing dies that only size a portion of the neck, even on hunting rifles.

 

[cahunter805]

Theoretically, I think there is a benefit to having more surface area of the neck gripping the projectile on a hunting rifle that is subjected to some level of abuse. This doesn't matter for a target/benchrest rifle. The loaded round goes from reloading bench, into padded case, onto the shooting bench, single fed into the chamber.

As said by others above, sizing only a portion of the neck does eliminate some problems that can arise at the neck/shoulder junction like the donut and avoids work stress on the brass in that area. Also, if you're not sizing the body of the case, and you're only sizing a portion of the neck, then the unsized portion of the neck will be fireformed to the chamber just like the body, resulting in a more precise fit.

One other thought: If the engineers that created the cartridge only intended for you to size 3/4 of the neck for tension on the projectile, then why didn't they just shorten it by 1/4 and increase case capacity? I think Redding could put a paragraph regarding why one might choose to only size a portion of the neck on the instructions included with the die to eliminate the numerous calls they must get related to why their bushing dies don't size the whole neck.

Having said all that, I have never had an issue with inadequate neck tension using bushing dies that only size a portion of the neck, even on hunting rifles.

Even if you had an issue with inadequate neck tension that’s the beauty of a bushing die. Just swap it for another bushing that’s .001 or .002 smaller.
I’ve personally found that many cartridges and rifles respond better to a bit more neck tension anyway. I like to run .003-.004 and adjust from there.

 

[ImBillT]

Theoretically, I think there is a benefit to having more surface area of the neck gripping the projectile on a hunting rifle that is subjected to some level of abuse. This doesn't matter for a target/benchrest rifle. The loaded round goes from reloading bench, into padded case, onto the shooting bench, single fed into the chamber.

As said by others above, sizing only a portion of the neck does eliminate some problems that can arise at the neck/shoulder junction like the donut and avoids work stress on the brass in that area. Also, if you're not sizing the body of the case, and you're only sizing a portion of the neck, then the unsized portion of the neck will be fireformed to the chamber just like the body, resulting in a more precise fit.

One other thought: If the engineers that created the cartridge only intended for you to size 3/4 of the neck for tension on the projectile, then why didn't they just shorten it by 1/4 and increase case capacity? I think Redding could put a paragraph regarding why one might choose to only size a portion of the neck on the instructions included with the die to eliminate the numerous calls they must get related to why their bushing dies don't size the whole neck.

Having said all that, I have never had an issue with inadequate neck tension using bushing dies that only size a portion of the neck, even on hunting rifles.

You’re giving the “engineers” that designed the cartridge a little too much credit in most cases. The majority of cartridges that hunters use today were either designed in the 1890’s, 1906, or 1954, or they were merely the result of necking one of those three cartridges up or down. In the cases of the the 284Win and 30TC(6.5creedmore parent), neither was designed from the ground up to be the perfect cartridge, but instead, both were attempt to match the performance of an existing cartridge while being short enough to fit in a rifle that the existing cartridge didn’t fit in.


Now I’m not saying that you can run with little to no neck tension in a hunting gun. You can’t. In my match guns I always used as little neck tension as possible. In a hunting gun I like the general rule of thumb of trying to get about a bullet diameter’s worth of length into a neck. That is usually considered to be enough to keep the bullet straight in case of rough handling or feeding. Some cartridges don’t have a bullet diameter long neck.

You can test for issues pretty easily. I actually finished getting a load setup for two new rigs. On the 30-06AI I hadn’t anticipated my necks getting so thin from necking up and didn’t have a bushing as small as I’d like. The cases are just barely grazing the expander on the way out of the die. So, I shot a most of my groups from the magazine and measured CBTO on the final round before shooting it. In 2-4 shots(3-5 shot groups) I would get zero change in CBTO measurements when checking the final round. The tips were flattening about .020” shorter than before, but they went right into the groups even at 500yds. I also took a loaded round snd pressed it as hard as I could into a wooden bench, snd that bullet went in the group as well. So, even with less bullet in the neck than I normally shoot for, and with considerably less neck tension that I normally shoot for, it was plenty.

200yds and 500yds. 190VLD@2930fps fired from the magazine. 9.25lb rifle, so plenty of recoil. If you’ll notice, the bearing surface of the bullet does not even reach the portion of the neck that was unsized.