Lead Bullets and Poisoning

[mdunc8]

Not sure how competitive shooting found its way into this. Are you competitively shooting golden eagles? I understand your point with regards to competitive shooting. I would probably be a little worried if I fired off a couple hundred rounds at the range every weekend, but the discussion WAS centered around lead exposure in raptors and humans.

I'm not advocating the ban of lead. I'm just saying I might not use it anymore with the hopes that I MIGHT save a bird or two and MIGHT eliminate my own intake of lead.

Interesting fact on the AR. Not arguing. Just surprised. I only know a few folks who have ARs.

 

[mdunc8]

Ya, there were quite a few interesting studies, were you there?

Although some people might be using this to try and make ammunition more expensive, I don't think it is the people that are doing the scientific research. They were just stating what they tested and concluded. They weren't screaming and yelling that we need to ban lead bullets.

I'm on the fish side of things, so I usually don't make the TWS meetings. I talked with a couple other folks who were there and they mentioned that talk too.

 

[6speed]

Lol, your to funny. I dont know how detailed i'm supposed to get typing off of a 4" phone screen while I sit in the truck during break time at work. But I truly, think your cluless in this, and trying to push your own personal agenda and beleif on this, while attacking my actual truths. Its more than a few dollars for ammuntion as well. Maybe you dont shoot other than when you hunt, frankly I dont care. The shooting sports industry is enormous. Whether your talking about competitive shooting, plinking or whatever, it doesnt take a genious to figure out what the devastion would be by banning lead. It wasnt 10 years ago a box of .22lr cost $7 for a box of 500. Now what is it $25-30? Now make all them projectiles copper? lol How about the most popular gun of the 21st century the AR platform. Ever price 5.56 ammo out? Maybe your a smug, little man and you fall into the Zumbo category, but there here to stay, unless people like you have your way and ban lead.

Your bias doesnt win any agruments over with me. Neither do your internet tough guy tactics. But you did win a few laughs over on my side of the screen.

I too am typing on a phone screen its a pain. I agree with you on the theory that antis may be behind this latest drive to make ammo less affordable although 223 ammo prices may be more linked to the fact that it is so popular, supply and demand. I like reading other peoples opinions and seeing other points of view that is the real reason I check this site I get totally different points of view from other people with the same interests as me. Let's not make this a personal.

 

[Brudno]

Not sure how competitive shooting found its way into this. Are you competitively shooting golden eagles? I understand your point with regards to competitive shooting. I would probably be a little worried if I fired off a couple hundred rounds at the range every weekend, but the discussion WAS centered around lead exposure in raptors and humans.

I'm not advocating the ban of lead. I'm just saying I might not use it anymore with the hopes that I MIGHT save a bird or two and MIGHT eliminate my own intake of lead.

Interesting fact on the AR. Not arguing. Just surprised. I only know a few folks who have ARs.

It made its way in here because according to you, I'm an "ignorant blowhole", you mention it like its barely a cost consideration at all. It sure sounds like your adovacating a ban on lead from the way you've been attacking me. Because I stated the obvious effects of a lead ban, but since it really wouldnt affect you, you seem not to care about everyone else who may enjoy the same rights and privelages you do. I myself see the value in all people who share my same passion for hunting and shooting, so I'm not so quick to sell them down the river.

Alot of these studies are cleary biased and leave lots of variable up in the air, to prove specific point. ND's study disproves many of the other ones. I see this in the bigger picture, you should too, since it was only last year they tried to force the EPA to ram this down our throats. But that was all about the bird and our own safety though, right?

 

[Brudno]

I too am typing on a phone screen its a pain. I agree with you on the theory that antis may be behind this latest drive to make ammo less affordable although 223 ammo prices may be more linked to the fact that it is so popular, supply and demand. I like reading other peoples opinions and seeing other points of view that is the real reason I check this site I get totally different points of view from other people with the same interests as me. Let's not make this a personal.

Agreed, I dont want to make this personal, I dont know why Mdunc is pounding me on this.

I do think maybe my point wasnt clear enough, I dont think this has anything to do with current ammo prices however, I do mention it, because people need to think about what banning lead does mean to ammo prices, more than on just a scale of a box of 20.

 

[MHMT]

Alot of these studies are cleary biased and leave lots of variable up in the air, to prove specific point. ND's study disproves many of the other ones.

Which other ones? I'm not sure what you are referring to.

 

[Brudno]

Which other ones? I'm not sure what you are referring to.

Dr. William Cornatzer's study most specifically. He was on the board of directors for the peregrine fund and he still remains a director of the group. The same group pushing the lead ban in California.

 

[mdunc8]

Dr. William Cornatzer's study most specifically. He was on the board of directors for the peregrine fund and he still remains a director of the group. The same group pushing the lead ban in California.

You didn't answer the question. How is the STUDY biased? It might be. I haven't read it.

 

[mdunc8]

I dont know why Mdunc is pounding me on this.

I'm "pounding" you because most of your arguments are baseless (e.g., hunting with a silencer is protected under the constitution, there's more wolves in any one of the midwestern states than all the Rocky Mountain state combined, etc.). You seem to center your arguments around opinion or inaccurate facts.

 

[Brudno]

I'm "pounding" you because most of your arguments are baseless (e.g., hunting with a silencer is protected under the constitution, there's more wolves in any one of the midwestern states than all the Rocky Mountain state combined, etc.). You seem to center your arguments around opinion or inaccurate facts.

Never once said that, your bias and fear of suppressors may of lead you, to that conclusion from statements but I never once said that. Nor did I say there was more wolves in any one midwestern state than all the rocky mountain states combined. Again your twisting my words. Funny you make the claim that I center my arguments around opinion considering how incredibly uneducated you are when it comes to suppressors, but that didnt keep you from throwing yourself and your opinions into that thread as well. For the sake of this forum, you got anything to say to me from here on out, refer them to my PM's and I'll do the same.

 

[mdunc8]

Never once said that, your bias and fear of suppressors may of lead you, to that conclusion from statements but I never once said that. Nor did I say there was more wolves in any one midwestern state than all the rocky mountain states combined.

I leave you alone after this one. Verbatim from your post regarding the use of silencers to hunt in Montana "2nd amendment rights affect the entire nation. If your going to battle it, your going to need a better argument as well." Word for word from your post on wolves "There are more Wolves in Wisconsin than any 2 of the rocky states and same goes for Michigan."

Here's the links if you would like to remind yourself what you said.
http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=245754&page=2
http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=245648

 

[Brudno]

I leave you alone after this one. Verbatim from your post regarding the use of silencers to hunt in Montana "2nd amendment rights affect the entire nation. If your going to battle it, your going to need a better argument as well." Word for word from your post on wolves "There are more Wolves in Wisconsin than any 2 of the rocky states and same goes for Michigan."

Here's the links if you would like to remind yourself what you said.
http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=245754&page=2
http://onyourownadventures.com/hunttalk/showthread.php?t=245648

So you were paraphrasing, only not correctly paraphrasing...

 

[sweetnectar]

You boys look pretty bad with your tiff so I'll settle it for you. Lead bullet rock. Birds die. Most of us don't really care.

 

[mdunc8]

OK, I lied. One more and then I'll leave you alone. I wasn't familiar with the Peregrine Fund so I did some quick reading (which you may want to do as well)

The same group pushing the lead ban in California.

Here's a little snippet from their website.

Special interest groups have called The Peregrine Fund “an animal rights group whose
political agenda includes banning lead ammunition.” They have said that “the Peregrine
Fund and anti-hunting groups are continuing to press state legislatures around the country to support a ban on this common, safe and effective ammunition.” The truth is that The Peregrine Fund is a conservation organization focused on birds of prey. Many of our staff are hunters, and the organization recognizes and appreciates the valuable role of hunters in wildlife conservation. In fact, carcasses and offal from carcasses remaining in the field as a result of hunting are important sources of food for scavengers provided they are not killed with lead bullets or shotgun pellets.

The Peregrine Fund’s position on lead ammunition has been posted on our website since 2007. It states clearly a preference for a voluntary switch to non-lead, as the organization has been promoting in northern Arizona since 2005. The Peregrine Fund has not and is not pressing any state legislatures for a ban on lead ammunition. Read our position statement at: http://www.peregrinefund.org/pdfs/Commentaries/PositionLeadAmmunition2007.pdf

The truth is that The Peregrine Fund did not participate in the campaign in
California. The Peregrine Fund did provide its research results on mortality in condors
caused by lead from spent ammunition for consideration by the California Game
Commission only to ensure that the facts were accurately represented.
The groups that campaigned to ban lead ammunition in California were: Wishtoyo
Foundation; Anthony Prieto; Leif Bierer; Physicians for Social Responsibility; Center for
Biological Diversity; and Natural Resources Defense Council, Inc.

FYI - Cornatzer is a hunter himself

 

[mdunc8]

You boys look pretty bad with your tiff so I'll settle it for you. Lead bullet rock. Birds die. Most of us don't really care.

I'm OK with not caring, but I'm going to call out people who go off on a tangent about something they haven't done any reading about.

 

[Brudno]

FYI - Cornatzer is a hunter himself

Somthing I am familiar with, but so are you...

 

[xrayts]

I'm not sure I want to perpetuate this argument, but I do want to give my two cents.

We speculate that the five birds (12%) showing at
least clinical exposure levels (≥60 μg/dL) had recently
ingested lead-tainted carcasses and/or offal
piles, likely during migration. Eagles with lower,
but detectable blood lead levels may have had earlier
exposure with the majority of the lead already
deposited in other organs and bone. We surmise the
use of lead-core ammunition for hunting is the major
source for lead exposure in Golden Eagles,
though we cannot identify a particular source species
or region, in part because of the overlapping
timing of hunting seasons for various game species
in different regions of the Rocky Mountains and the
‐ DOMENECH AND LANGNER ‐
2
very large area visited by Golden Eagles during
migration season.
We are uncertain whether our preliminary numbers
represent the northern migratory population of
Golden Eagles as a whole, but a serious threat to
the welfare of the species on a landscape level appears
plausible. We believe an intensive educational
outreach campaign and a switch away from
lead-containing hunting ammunition to alternative,
less toxic materials are appropriate ways to protect
these and other scavenging species, as well as human
consumers of gun-killed animals.

The quoted paragraph is from the aforementioned abstract by Domenech, et al.

I find it difficult to make an argument against the use of lead based on opinions. I have "bolded" the key words and sentences that highlight their bias and assumptions.
The only facts I see in the abstract are that some Eagles had an increase of lead in their bloodstream.
As long as we are arguing opinions...I believe it is unlikely that unrecovered animals, containing lead, killed by a single projectile, would have any influence on a population of Eagles or other scavengers.
Legislative battles are won with hidden agendas and ulterior motives. Don't believe everything you read.
As for human consumption...clean the animal thoroughly and use your best judgment.
You could definitely ingest some lead, but if you are careful, and chew your food, you'll avoid it. Many generations before us have survived, and we will too. Just be conscientious.

 

[mdunc8]

I agree with you. Pretty soft wording in the abstract. You wouldn't see that kind of wording in most peer reviewed articles. Also agree about the human consumption comment. Part of the reason I butcher everything myself. However, there are plenty of papers out there that make a much more direct correlation between hunting and lead exposure. There's also older experimental papers out there that have looked at chronic and acute lead poisoning. Again, it's probably not biologically relevant for most species, but something to think about.

 

[Drake4]

My opinions....
1. The human consumption/danger aspect of this deal is a load of crap.
2. I have yet to see a convincing argument that links lead killed game to killing birds. Just speculation and I don't believe it. Could be wrong though.
3. I will continue to shoot lead and it would be a bad deal to ban it.

 

[thecrittergitter]

I saw a golden eagle get hit by a car last week flying off a road kill...............i hope they don't intend to ban our cars

I've been shooting Barnes for years but not because of the lead issue at all, in fact, wouldn't give a second thought of eating any animal that was shot with lead bullets..........what a load of crap.

Yep, i do believe that after i get done emptying 300 rounds of 223 ammo at all the gophers on my property that a raven or two might ingest a slight amount of lead fragments.........But its better than him taking a full dose of lead isn't it: