6.8 Western Accuracy Expectations Unrealistic?

[bluegrassdan]

But you must have internet worthy accuracy. mtmuley

I wish like hell I had a light hunting rifle that could shoot as well as a lot of claims on the internet. I own some one hole groupers, but none of them are under 9lbs. My best was a .338 Edge that would put 5 rounds into a single hole with boring regularity, but it weighs 26lbs and has a 32" barrel...a hunting rifle it is not!

 

[Gulf of America]

I wish like hell I had a light hunting rifle that could shoot as well as a lot of claims on the internet. I own some one hole groupers, but none of them are under 9lbs. My best was a .338 Edge that would put 5 rounds into a single hole with boring regularity, but it weighs 26lbs and has a 32" barrel...a hunting rifle it is not!

My Howa Superlite in 6.5 Creedmoor shoots under an inch with 3 of 4 factory loads I've shot and is under 6lb scoped and suppressed. It's really easy to shoot it really bad too though. The gun is definitely only one part of the equation.

 

[Chingon]

Brand new Tikka 6.5 Creed chopped to 17.5". Four rounds to sight in and next 20 rounds here with factory Berger ammo. Shoots just like my other 4,000 Tikkas that I tell my wife I need.

 

[nhenry]

Brand new Tikka 6.5 Creed chopped to 17.5". Four rounds to sight in and next 20 rounds here with factory Berger ammo. Shoots just like my other 4,000 Tikkas that I tell my wife I need.

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The famed “sub-MOA all day” rifle. Jesus.

 

[Cornbread]

I love a revived thread.

I have no patience for and give no time to rifles that don’t shoot and shotguns that don’t cycle.

I will give a rifle a “chance” to shoot three or so different types of factory ammo and if it won’t do it with that then I’m done. The bullet matters too much (unless target shooting only) to sacrifice what I want/need trying to make a rifle shoot. I’ve played around with 3 Black Friday $250 (including scope) Savage specials that would shoot sub MOA so I’m not going to suffer a $1000+ rifle not doing it.

Thad all being said, we need to be honest with ourselves the practical difference between 1 and 1.5 MOA really doesn’t matter for hunting. So if it shoots well enough to do what you need it to do and you “like” it. Then like one poster said….avoid the wormhole.

I beg to differ. I believe that a 1.5" group from a factory rifle is unacceptable these days for hunting out west. My own opinion is that there have been a ton a newbies that have entered hunting since 2020. They only have a cheap price in mind, and the manufactursrs play to that. Quality control has fallen, and the chdap flashy stufc has been added, hence cheap triggers, mu,zle breaks, and cheap stocks. And somerimes cheap barrels. Browning triggers are so bad. Over the past 3 years I bought 2 new BARs, and 3 new BLRs. 6lb triggers with no availability of a replacsment tdigger. Even Ruger has gone through this phase. An M77 I just bought in .375 Ruger has a very smooth trigger.

A 1.5" group at 100 yards becomes a 4.5" grohp at 300 yards and a 6" group at 400 yards. These are pretty normal hunting ranges out west. A 6" group aint cutting it. Just my opinion.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I beg to differ. I believe that a 1.5" group from a factory rifle is unacceptable these days for hunting out west. My own opinion is that there have been a ton a newbies that have entered hunting since 2020. They only have a cheap price in mind, and the manufactursrs play to that. Quality control has fallen, and the chdap flashy stufc has been added, hence cheap triggers, mu,zle breaks, and cheap stocks. And somerimes cheap barrels. Browning triggers are so bad. Over the past 3 years I bought 2 new BARs, and 3 new BLRs. 6lb triggers with no availability of a replacsment tdigger. Even Ruger has gone through this phase. An M77 I just bought in .375 Ruger has a very smooth trigger.

A 1.5" group at 100 yards becomes a 4.5" grohp at 300 yards and a 6" group at 400 yards. These are pretty normal hunting ranges out west. A 6" group aint cutting it. Just my opinion.

99% of hunters aren't 1.5 MOA field shooters and the vast majority of hunting rifles aren't sub MOA when shot with statistically significant shot counts. 400 yard shots may have become more common in recent years but that doesn't mean most hunters have high odds of a happy outcome at that distance.

 

[shannerdrake]

I beg to differ. I believe that a 1.5" group from a factory rifle is unacceptable these days for hunting out west. My own opinion is that there have been a ton a newbies that have entered hunting since 2020. They only have a cheap price in mind, and the manufactursrs play to that. Quality control has fallen, and the chdap flashy stufc has been added, hence cheap triggers, mu,zle breaks, and cheap stocks. And somerimes cheap barrels. Browning triggers are so bad. Over the past 3 years I bought 2 new BARs, and 3 new BLRs. 6lb triggers with no availability of a replacsment tdigger. Even Ruger has gone through this phase. An M77 I just bought in .375 Ruger has a very smooth trigger.

A 1.5" group at 100 yards becomes a 4.5" grohp at 300 yards and a 6" group at 400 yards. These are pretty normal hunting ranges out west. A 6" group aint cutting it. Just my opinion.

I think we are saying about the same thing. If a $250 Black Friday special can shoot sub MOA, a $1300 Browning should also.

However, I’m not sure that I ascribe to the notion that a 6in 400yd group is unacceptable, but a 4in is good to go.

But I think we are 90% aligned on this one.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Brand new Tikka 6.5 Creed chopped to 17.5". Four rounds to sight in and next 20 rounds here with factory Berger ammo. Shoots just like my other 4,000 Tikkas that I tell my wife I need.

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Impressive. 9 out of 10 times my CTR tube on the 16# NRL rifle probably isn't shooting that tight.

 

[Dan-06]

I put a pacnor stainless fluted barrel in a Remington 672. 1:7.5 twist. 26 inches long. In 6.8 western. Found that the Winchester factory loads were too hot. I pulled the bullets. Weighed their powder charges. Noticed that there was a significant difference in weight. Up to 1.5 grains of ball powder. After doing a ladder test I settled on 58.3 grains of vv n560. Using 165 grains nosler accubonds long range. Getting just under 3000 FPS. Getting 1.5 inch 5 shot groups at 300 yards.

 

[Cornbread]

I put a pacnor stainless fluted barrel in a Remington 672. 1:7.5 twist. 26 inches long. In 6.8 western. Found that the Winchester factory loads were too hot. I pulled the bullets. Weighed their powder charges. Noticed that there was a significant difference in weight. Up to 1.5 grains of ball powder. After doing a ladder test I settled on 58.3 grains of vv n560. Using 165 grains nosler accubonds long range. Getting just under 3000 FPS. Getting 1.5 inch 5 shot groups at 300 yards.

You are good to go sir! Congrats. I'd be happy with that.

 

[Cornbread]

99% of hunters aren't 1.5 MOA field shooters and the vast majority of hunting rifles aren't sub MOA when shot with statistically significant shot counts. 400 yard shots may have become more common in recent years but that doesn't mean most hunters have high odds of a happy outcome at that distance.

I agree completely. I thought that my Browning BLRs were good shooters with 1" groups, until I recently got my Tenacity Arms rifle in 7mm PRC with a Scythe Ti can on it. The difference is like day & night. The can helps a lot, but so does the TriggerTech trigger & the Proof Research barrel. It did a 1 1/8" group at 300 yards on Monday. In the field, Ultimately its the indian not the arrow, right? And then there is the wind!

 

[El Jason]

A 1.5" group at 100 yards becomes a 4.5" grohp at 300 yards and a 6" group at 400 yards. These are pretty normal hunting ranges out west. A 6" group aint cutting it. Just my opinion.

A 6” group at 400 yards is not going to cause someone to miss a game animal.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

A 6” group at 400 yards is not going to cause someone to miss a game animal.

Unless we're talking about a gun that shot a 1.5 MOA 3 shot group and pretending said group is actually a good measurement of that rifle's precision.

 

[El Jason]

Unless we're talking about a gun that shot a 1.5 MOA 3 shot group and pretending said group is actually a good measurement of that rifle's precision.

Certainly. I should have clarified a gun that has statistically demonstrated 1.5 MOA capabilities, which a three shot group does not.

It’s amazing how resistant to statistical data some folks are.

 

[Cornbread]

I attached pics to my post above. The Federal ballistic calculator was for the most part spot on out to 700 yards. Im kinda old school on calibers and my 3 favorite have always been the .25-06, 7mm rem mag, & the .300 win mag. But I gotta say that this bew 7mm PRC is incredibly accurate. Maybe its the new rifle, but Federal Premium stopped making 175 grain pills for the 7mm rem mag. Cant wait to get the second Tenacity Firearms rifle in .300 PRC.

 

[Cornbread]

I attached pics to my post above. The Federal ballistic calculator was for the most part spot on out to 700 yards. Im kinda old school on calibers and my 3 favorite have always been the .25-06, 7mm rem mag, & the .300 win mag. But I gotta say that this bew 7mm PRC is incredibly accurate. Maybe its the new rifle, but Federal Premium stopped making 175 grain pills for the 7mm rem mag. Cant wait to get the second Tenacity Firearms rifle in .300 PRC.

 

[Cornbread]

Certainly. I should have clarified a gun that has statistically demonstrated 1.5 MOA capabilities, which a three shot group does not.

It’s amazing how resistant to statistical data some folks are.

Well, I used to teach university-level statistics at one point in my career. Shooting is a dynamic process subject to error, right? Practice eliminates shooter error. An awesome rifle with the right trigger, barrel, bedding, & action eliminates more error. Optics eliminate error, and tge right cartridge eliminates further error. All have to work together, right?

 

[El Jason]

Well, I used to teach university-level statistics at one point in my career. Shooting is a dynamic process subject to error, right? Practice eliminates shooter error. An awesome rifle with the right trigger, barrel, bedding, & action eliminates more error. Optics eliminate error, and tge right cartridge eliminates further error. All have to work together, right?

I don’t recall referencing you with respect to statistics.

I did reference you that a 1.5 MOA gun won’t cause a miss on a game animal at 400 yards.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Well, I used to teach university-level statistics at one point in my career. Shooting is a dynamic process subject to error, right? Practice eliminates shooter error. An awesome rifle with the right trigger, barrel, bedding, & action eliminates more error. Optics eliminate error, and tge right cartridge eliminates further error. All have to work together, right?

For Illustrative purposes, one could take a whole bunch of 3 shot samples from the below target that would measure less than 1/2 MOA but its not a 1/2 moa rifle/ammo setup. That is a good shooting setup. A setup that frequently shoots 1-1.5 MOA 3 shot groups would have notably more misleading results unless there were a lot of 3 round groups shot.

 

[Cornbread]

For Illustrative purposes, one could take a whole bunch of 3 shot samples from the below target that would measure less than 1/2 MOA but its not a 1/2 moa rifle/ammo setup. That is a good shooting setup. A setup that frequently shoots 1-1.5 MOA 3 shot groups would have notably more misleading results unless there were a lot of 3 round groups shot.

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For Illustrative purposes, one could take a whole bunch of 3 shot samples from the below target that would measure less than 1/2 MOA but its not a 1/2 moa rifle/ammo setup. That is a good shooting setup. A setup that frequently shoots 1-1.5 MOA 3 shot groups would have notably more misleading results unless there were a lot of 3 round groups shot.

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No doubt.