Montana's Outfitter Assistant Law: Fair to the Public?

Pierre

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Lets look at an example of scary proportions. Say I booked a dream hunt for my aging Father. He seems the picture of health but who knows. I read up on lots of outfitter sites about the quality and dependability of their guides. They must have first aid cards. But upon arriving for his hunt, my Father is notified (or not) that his guide is not available and he'll have a OA. No experience and no first aid. I may have saved for years to do this and I want what was promised originally....experience and first aid. I don't want to be involved with any friends or relatives booking hunts without the prompt notification that situations have changed and the outfitter can't deliver as promised. It is a breach of contract to not get the level of service promised!

Moga introduced and subsequently passed an Outfitter Assistant Law in the last legislature. It was billed as a bill for outfitters to fill guide spots in an "emergency". Unfortunately "emergency" wasn't defined. It was sold as a "try and see if it works". It has a sunset and now Moga is pushing to rid itself of the sunset with the reasoning that "outfitters like it". There is a requirement that outfitters notify clients that they have an OA and that the OA may not have first aid. Only fair as there may be health issues or issues of experienced guides promised in the original data given to the client.

We view "trying it" as a test of compliance with rules and not seeing abuse. Here is how it works. An outfitter can use an OA under so-called emergency conditions. It is a real consequence of having employees; some don't show, some quit, some must be fired. Chit happens. Any business hiring part time help faces the same thing. Most businesses in this boat, including mine, are proactive enough to have someone to fill in already planned and basic requirements met ahead of time. But, most times the public's health, safety and welfare are not in question. With OA there certainly is questions of safety, health, and welfare of the public because there are NO requirements for an OA...no, not even first aid. They can grab any fool off a barstool and wham, he is an OA.

We want to know if clients are in fact being notified and just how much abuse comes in under cover of "emergency". It does look like some folks are abusing this statute. The Montana Sportsmen Alliance will be moving forward with legislation on this issue. The sunset should be allowed to take affect if there is no examination of abuse or compliance.

We might be willing to look at some sort of "emergency" guide provided emergency has some perameters and providing that the client has signed off on a written statement of OA use.

There are hoops that must be jumped thru to assure the public is protected from poor business practices. Moga bills itself as the savior of Non-Residents but this seems to tell the real story.

We are curious how the hunting public views this situation.

Joe
 
IMO, I think any legitimate business should have a plan in place prior to being caught in an "emergency" situation.

If I were to negotiate this from a standpoint of how we do things in my profession, I would require the following be addressed, clarified, etc. via MOU, law, or regulation:

1. A clear definition of what qualifies as an emergency.

2. I would look at past cases where said emergencies happened and how they were addressed.

3. I would require an agreed upon basic skill set of any OA (first aid, temporary guide license, contact information, background check, firearm safety, hunters education, orienteering, etc. etc. etc.).

4. Have the completed skill set and lists of approved OA's prior to the hunting seasons.

As a legitimate business I would not want to send my clients out with someone that I didn't know had the basic skill set required to guide a hunter safely, efficiently, and properly. It just makes sense.

I can already see the outfitters using this as a loophole for problems they may be having with their guides, and an easy way out for replacing them.

I don't have a problem with having a plan in place, but just using this kind of law to work your way out of jam for say, over-booking hunts, personal issues with a guide, etc. etc. by hiring the nearest drunk...not the way it should be done.
 
Not an answer to your question, but my experience has been that outfitters who have "emergency" situations that arise and are short of guides usually have serious ethics/business issues at the root of their shortage of available guides. Most reputable ones who haven't burned bridges with past employees or other outfitters can find a qualified person for short term employment.

Not too many other professions offer the opportunity for someone responsible for fulfilling contracted services to temp in unqualified sub-contractors or employees because of "emergency" situations.
 
Not an answer to your question, but my experience has been that outfitters who have "emergency" situations that arise and are short of guides usually have serious ethics/business issues at the root of their shortage of available guides. Most reputable ones who haven't burned bridges with past employees or other outfitters can find a qualified person for short term employment.

Not too many other professions offer the opportunity for someone responsible for fulfilling contracted services to temp in unqualified sub-contractors or employees because of "emergency" situations.

This ^^^^. I worked for a good outfitter and he asked me to help out another outfitter in a pinch who lost a guide. I went up there, worked one hunt and then had to call the new boss out, directly, because of illegal and unethical shenanigans. When I got no joy, I left. I can imagine a client on the next hunt getting stuck with some kind of fill-in. Any old cowboy that can fork a horse doesn't necessarily make a guide.
 
We have 2 skill set requirements for my job, a basic bunch of things that we have before anyone can go into the field. Non-negotiable at this point, you don't have them, you don't work.

The basic things are: wilderness first aid/cpr, orienteering, how to use all of our electronics (SPOT, In-reach, satellite phone, gps, cell phones), defensive driving, ATV/Motorcycle training, horse packing, things that keep us safe in the woods.

The second skill set is mostly on-the-job training to complete the work we do and those skills are acquired more or less on the fly.

I just think its a damn good idea to make sure that a "guide" is savvy/trained enough to keep a hunter safe. One would also think as the outfitter/employer, you would want to cover your ass if things go south (which does happen in the woods), and make sure your guides have the basics.

I don't know...maybe I'm just too cautious, but these types of requirements really would protect/help all involved (guides, clients, and employer).
 
Buzz, you bring up an interesting point. It is relatively easy to call law enforcement and ask if there are any charges pending on an individual. That should be a requirement as well.
J
 
Buzz hit it on the head. I personally would be pissed if I booked a hunt and showed up to find out that I got an OA that wasn't experienced or qualified.
 
My legal advice says you can ask for any violations or charges that have been filed as they become public record upon filing. So if someone has a lengthy record, you'd know.
 
My legal advice says you can ask for any violations or charges that have been filed as they become public record upon filing. So if someone has a lengthy record, you'd know.

If you call up the court where the charges are filed, they will tell you. But most of the time they won't know if there is also something going on a few counties over. If you call up law enforcement, they will probably tell you to buzz off.
 
In general the outfitting community needs to clean up its act. Taking with both hands and giving nothing back has consequences...
 
One would have to question why they are willing to fight this and other ridiculous wars in the light of public opinion? I have had many outfitters tell me that they would never use this OA loophole.
 
Unfortunately, it seems that many "outfitters" are really providing only one service.... access to land (for a fee) that you used to be able to hunt by knocking on a door. Until all of the leasing anyway.
 
This law was a terrible law that was passed against our wishes. We had fought this but with the political climate of the day it passed.

I know a few really good outfitters that used quality guides, and run a top operation. Correction, I know very few, really good outfitters.

One reason I would never use a outfitter for any type of hunt is because I know the many that are not using proven guides. My experience is that many of these people are newbies from out-of-state, that have dreamed of being a mountain man and moving west. First thing they do is get in with your average outfitter and get hired to guide clients. These clients paid real money for "experience" and many get guided by someone with very little of that.
 
It was also Moga who thought it best for THEM to remove all qualifications for a guides license except first aid. The OA gets rid of that. Diminishes what a guide is or could be in Montana. If I was booking an outfitter in Montana, I'd be wary. Discuss these issues with them. Ask questions. Don't be afraid to look around.
The trouble is many outfitters who are legit not speaking up and letting Moga run with their vision.
J
 
I visited with one of the legislators that MOGA parades in front of the Board of Outfitters to influence votes. "... I believe that to go forward there needs to be a definition of what an "emergency" could be... first look at existing uses. Plus, limiting the frequency would put sideboards on the over-use... Does the Board review the uses?
This all must be under the main umbrella of safety."
 
I am a licensed professional engineer an land surveyor. If I have an emergency I can not get a non licensed person to fill in and complete projects. If a license is required of a profession, for reasons to protect the public, than those requirements should not be compromised. The basis for requiring licenses is to protect the public. There are public members on all boards to represent the public. I strongly disagree with this proposed change in the law.
rgross
 
The problem with the outfitters (besides being unethical) is they are greasing the pockets of the legislatures who aren't any better then the ones that are in DC. Looking for however they can get gains for themselves and screw the people who voted them in. Lies to get votes and once in office its their own game plan.
 
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