FWP adjusts mule deer quotas in response to spring surveys

[cowboy]

Why "public"? Do you want to further delineate a specific section that I have to prove a positive result on? I tend to believe you know it is impossible for me to prove anything of the sort.

Spin it, twist it or deviate from what the results are. How about you include all lands, private, public and even throw in the parks - I don’t care.
The overall Mt. big game wildlife situation is on a declining slope and we are not using biology to slow that trend down.

 

[BuzzH]

Why "public"? Do you want to further delineate a specific section that I have to prove a positive result on? I tend to believe you know it is impossible for me to prove anything of the sort. I know they cut B tags previously and I know they change antelope tags frequently based on trends. I'm not saying FWP is perfect (or even good) or there aren't changes that could and should be made. That is not the point of this thread at all. The point is, when they do something you like you should tell them. Or as Ben put it, "honey, vinegar, and all that". I guarantee there is someone sending an email complaining about the cut in tags. This rule of positive feedback should apply to spouses and kids and just human beings in general. A positive word goes a lot further than complaints. I would think we would have figured this out by now because complaining for the last 10+ yrs sure didn't show a positive result on wildlife herds on "public" land either.

Best $8 you can spend.
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That's a two way street, maybe the MTFWP should make that required reading for their staff as well.

The "bullshitting the public and doing the same thing over and over again" required reading obviously didn't work.

This latest move FWP made is a baby step in the right direction for one year.

Let's not get the party balloons out just yet.

 

[Carnage2011]

There are biologists in Montana that do a good job and make proactive decisions based on their observations as well as public feedback. Those are the ones I like to give credit to.

Example: I stay in close contact with the three closest biologists to where I live. Last year one of them wasn’t seeing much for mature bulls in a unit he manages. He talked to every tag holder on the phone and then contacted me and a couple other guys that spend a lot of time in there. We all had the same report….plenty of bulls but not many mature bulls. He chose to lower that quota by 20% this year in hopes to improve the quality of bulls.

I have no problem giving him credit for making that decision.

 

[SAJ-99]

That's a two way street, maybe the MTFWP should make that required reading for their staff as well.

The "bullshitting the public and doing the same thing over and over again" required reading obviously didn't work.

This latest move FWP made is a baby step in the right direction for one year.

Let's not get the party balloons out just yet.

Agree. There are a lot of potential changes being discussed. That’s a good sign that this baby step maybe followed by another. And I agree the past trend hasn’t been good, but complaining hasn’t worked. Unless you have some big money behind you to get a politician’s attention, constant complaining never works. Just stop beating the dog for the stuff it does wrong and start giving small rewards for progress.

 

[MTTW]

Fwp made mule deer doe tags only good on private in a unit near me in sw Mt last year. Thanks Hank, and the region 3 biologists involved.
A while back I made a comment that Hank was our light at the end of the tunnel. I will admit it was heaped with snark at the time but maybe I should take back the snark, maybe.
Greg G and his administration had balls enough to speak of mountain lion quotas and mule deer in the same sentence.
Thanks Greg.
I am going to wait and see how this winter induced change goes because I don't feel like they had a choice on it.

 

[antlerradar]

That's a two way street, maybe the MTFWP should make that required reading for their staff as well.

The "bullshitting the public and doing the same thing over and over again" required reading obviously didn't work.

Agree, Two things I have heard recently form FWP biologists that gets under my skin,

We are experiencing the good old days right now and some version of lace up the boots tighter.

 

[cowboy]

A while back I made a comment that Hank was our light at the end of the tunnel. I will admit it was heaped with snark at the time but maybe I should take back the snark, maybe.
Greg G and his administration had balls enough to speak of mountain lion quotas and mule deer in the same sentence.
Thanks Greg.

If we’re happy and satisfied with drastic biological changes like this, my grandkids may as well not even waste their time hunting.

I’ve run my race and taken way more than my fair share of Montana’s wildlife - I worry and work for the future generations.

Drastic times calls for drastic measures - if we are not there yet, we’re only one more bad winter away.

 

[mtmuley]

I’ve run my race and taken way more than my fair share of Montana’s wildlife - I worry and work for the future generations.

I agree. So have I. Changes in hunter behavior and understanding the impact on the resource will be key. And tough to change. mtmuley

 

[SAJ-99]

Agree, Two things I have heard recently form FWP biologists that gets under my skin,

We are experiencing the good old days right now and some version of lace up the boots tighter.

I think FWP certainly has a communication problem, but I can see how those comments are not exactly incorrect. In terms of today being the "good old days", things rarely get better. There are always more people and less habitat and more problems caused by both. I'm sure it feels like an uphill fight a lot.

On the "lace up the boots tighter", I would guess a lot of Montana hunters have shot a deer or elk using the side mirror of the truck as a gun rest (sort of joking but pretty close). That kind of sets the bar low. Average age for MT is over 40yrs (top 10 in age), 20% are over 65 and 11% are under 10yr. That is 31% that we can assume aren't lacing 'em up tighter regardless. How many lease a private spot or hunt private only and just want the status quote in terms of length of season/opportunity? Only a guess but I will bet if we add it to the last group we get to well over 50% of all R hunters. How many volunteer to repair/remove fences or spray invasive weeds or make any improvements to habitat? This is why nothing changes. To reiterate @cowboy point, which is a good one, it is going to take drastic measures to make things better. And there will be pain.

 

[mtmuley]

I think FWP certainly has a communication problem, but I can see how those comments are not exactly incorrect. In terms of today being the "good old days", things rarely get better. There are always more people and less habitat and more problems caused by both. I'm sure it feels like an uphill fight a lot.

On the "lace up the boots tighter", I would guess a lot of Montana hunters have shot a deer or elk using the side mirror of the truck as a gun rest (sort of joking but pretty close). That kind of sets the bar low. Average age for MT is over 40yrs (top 10 in age), 20% are over 65 and 11% are under 10yr. That is 31% that we can assume aren't lacing 'em up tighter regardless. How many lease a private spot or hunt private only and just want the status quote in terms of length of season/opportunity? Only a guess but I will bet if we add it to the last group we get to well over 50% of all R hunters. How many volunteer to repair/remove fences or spray invasive weeds or make any improvements to habitat? This is why nothing changes. To reiterate @cowboy point, which is a good one, it is going to take drastic measures to make things better. And there will be pain.

So 20% of hunters are too old. 11% are too young. Adding private land hunters we are at 50 % of hunters that do nothing. Got it. mtmuley

 

[SAJ-99]

So 20% of hunters are too old. 11% are too young. Adding private land hunters we are at 50 % of hunters that do nothing. Got it. mtmuley

Is there a point in there somewhere?

 

[mtmuley]

Is there a point in there somewhere?

Yeah. You assume a lot with those numbers. mtmuley

 

[SAJ-99]

Yeah. You assume a lot with those numbers. mtmuley

We all have to assume with numbers. Some are logical, like we can assume that those under 10 don't make up a significant portion of those people bitching on the internet. FWP assumes from public responses that most R hunters are happy with the way things are. Sad but true. And we are all still waiting on suggestions from you.

 

[Hunting Wife]

I’m not saying don’t complain. I’m saying complaining is only half of the tools at your disposal when making comments and providing feedback, and people rely too heavily on the complaining part.

Just an observation….in this very thread about FWP reducing doe tags this year, people are still bitching about tags not being reduced in 2011-2012, nothing ever changes, blah blah blah. Except something did just change, however small a step it may be. Those old complaints are not super useful to the agency in evaluating public sentiment about the current reduction in tags.

I guarantee you a lot of people will be actively complaining about this reduction. If folks who agree with it aren’t willing to actually give FWP some credit and support on it, it is far less likely to remain in place for long.

But do as you will.

 

[mtmuley]

And we are all still waiting on suggestions from you.

Really? All of you? Been a member here a long time. All of them know how I feel about Montana and mule deer. mtmuley

 

[BuzzH]

I think FWP certainly has a communication problem, but I can see how those comments are not exactly incorrect. In terms of today being the "good old days", things rarely get better. There are always more people and less habitat and more problems caused by both. I'm sure it feels like an uphill fight a lot.

On the "lace up the boots tighter", I would guess a lot of Montana hunters have shot a deer or elk using the side mirror of the truck as a gun rest (sort of joking but pretty close). That kind of sets the bar low. Average age for MT is over 40yrs (top 10 in age), 20% are over 65 and 11% are under 10yr. That is 31% that we can assume aren't lacing 'em up tighter regardless. How many lease a private spot or hunt private only and just want the status quote in terms of length of season/opportunity? Only a guess but I will bet if we add it to the last group we get to well over 50% of all R hunters. How many volunteer to repair/remove fences or spray invasive weeds or make any improvements to habitat? This is why nothing changes. To reiterate @cowboy point, which is a good one, it is going to take drastic measures to make things better. And there will be pain.

The problem is the various GF/FWP agencies claim to listen, they just don't hear a damn thing.

Telling the guys/gals that hunt their asses off, spend wayyyy more time than the other 99%, and have been doing so for decades, they just aren't hunting hard enough is a friggin' joke.

Yeah, I'm sure @antlerradar, @Beaver Hunter, @Randy11, etc. just aren't doing things right and hunting hard enough. Rookies, all, just riding around in trucks shooting off their truck mirrors.

That's a huge mistake not knowing your audience and ignoring people who are the best informed. Instead of listening to those that know, and using their knowledge to their advantage, its some smart assed comment about boot laces.

I've interacted with exactly 2 FWP biologists that were willing to not only listen, but actually heard what I was saying. They both used my knowledge rather than being dismissive know it alls.

 

[SAJ-99]

The problem is the various GF/FWP agencies claim to listen, they just don't hear a damn thing.

Telling the guys/gals that hunt their asses off, spend wayyyy more time than the other 99%, and have been doing so for decades, they just aren't hunting hard enough is a friggin' joke.

Yeah, I'm sure @antlerradar, @Beaver Hunter, @Randy11, etc. just aren't doing things right and hunting hard enough. Rookies, all, just riding around in trucks shooting off their truck mirrors.

That's a huge mistake not knowing your audience and ignoring people who are the best informed. Instead of listening to those that know, and using their knowledge to their advantage, its some smart assed comment about boot laces.

I've interacted with exactly 2 FWP biologists that were willing to not only listen, but actually heard what I was saying. They both used my knowledge rather than being dismissive know it alls.

Well unfortunately in a democracy uninformed opinions matter just as much as informed opinions. As much as many of us would be happy with the decision made by the Buzz and Mtmuley mule deer and elk committee, that’s not in the cards.

 

[MTTW]

If we’re happy and satisfied with drastic biological changes like this, my grandkids may as well not even waste their time hunting.

I’ve run my race and taken way more than my fair share of Montana’s wildlife - I worry and work for the future generations.

Drastic times calls for drastic measures - if we are not there yet, we’re only one more bad winter away.

I don't remember saying that I was happy or satisfied with management. What I did was point out a couple of small moves that I think are in the right direction. Unforced changes that give me hope for the future. Changes that were apparently out of the question 10 years ago. This shit isn't new, it is just new in the east. It has been deteriorating in the sw for decades. The east is just the last better place. I assure you that satisfied is one thing that I am not.

 

[antlerradar]

Telling the guys/gals that hunt their asses off, spend wayyyy more time than the other 99%, and have been doing so for decades, they just aren't hunting hard enough is a friggin' joke.

Yeah, I'm sure @antlerradar, @Beaver Hunter, @Randy11, etc. just aren't doing things right and hunting hard enough. Rookies, all, just riding around in trucks shooting off their truck mirrors.

I must admit that with 60 not that far down the road of life, that shooting one off the mirror is looking more and more appealing.

 

[Shangobango]

I’ve never hunted the Custer much , but I’m just gonna guess that say 5 years of absolutely 0 doe harvest on the Custer and the numbers would be much better wouldn’t they ? I mean I don’t think it’s really that complicated

I am no expert at all on mule deer or the Custer, but when I was up there a few years back I was astonished at the lack of deer and deer sign given the amount of deer habitat and forage present where I was.