Caribou Gear

Why now?

GrantK

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Aug 30, 2018
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219
Location
Western CO
I strongly disagree with many of the claims being made on here.

IMO...
It doesn't have anything to do with God, whichever flavor you prefer.
It doesn't have to do with 2 parent households, shitty parents exist they always have, and they exist on this forum, and they likely don't realize they're shitty parents, and there's nothing you're going to do about it.
It doesn't have anything to do with soccer, or movies, or video games, teachers or babysitters.
It doesn't have anything to do with your definition of morality, religion, or preferred version of history.

The best arguments are that we don't actually have a problem, "we" are simply fabricating one to fill some psychological void. A 1:10,000,000 event is not a real problem it's a black swan event. It's an unfortunate occurrence, often times tragic, and even if we analyze each one and determine that each one would have been preventable if..." ". They're not actually preventable because you don't prevent 1:10,000,000 events. Throw in that our current technology has allowed more free time and more ability to see terrible things that happen (while completely ignoring the 9,999,999 other events) and you've got a recipe for unnecessary social unrest.

If someone were to try and convince me that "something" was actually happening I'd lean towards it being way simpler and less definable. I think one might argue that we're simply seeing natural selection at work. Nature has all kinds of self-correcting mechanisms that we don't understand, and they don't all have to be physical attributes. We should expect to see more things that kill lots of us (disease, war, behavior, etc). Humans cannot live forever, populations cannot grow forever, and our species appears to prefer to burn the candle at both ends. We've massively constructed lives and societies that simply aren't resource sustainable. We've boomed, and now-maybe, we'll bust.

I largely think this is correct, even while I feel a little callous doing so...

to some extent it seems like as a society we are driven to eradicate every undesirable event, no matter how small the chances, and we are getting to the point where some of the battles we choose to fight we realistically won't ever be able to win because there are too many confounding variables to actually understand the root causes, and also, there are not actually enough events to get any useful data that doesn't conflict with some other example.

if I was to guess what the root was it would probably come down to helplessness, the last couple of years have really brought to a head a lot of issues that have been simmering for a long time, it's getting tougher to make a living, as pointed out upthread, upward mobility isn't as easy as it once was, lot's of people feel left behind, lot's of people don't fit in a convenient box that society portrays as the ideal now, combine that with the polarization of social media and news telling you it's all the other sides fault, throw in a little lack of real struggle, and then get medicated to help you deal on top of all that?

I feel for younger people now, it's easy to look down from my comfortable spot and say that they should suck it up, it would be quite different to be looking at the future from the perspective of a struggling, low achieving 17 year old right now and try to say that the future looks great... suicide is on the uptick, and some of those people hurt so much they want to make others hurt too?
 

406dn

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Dec 12, 2019
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1,372
Actually, this is neither here nor there. The hypothesis was that shooters lack a solid moral compass, which traditionally in this country has been based on Judeo- Christian values, instilled in the past through not only church/synagogue, but Boy Scouts, etc.

The data that we need is how many of the shooters, not just school, but all mass killers, say, in the last 30 years or so, attended church/synagogue regularly. And please let's not spin this off into cults like Jim Jones/Manson nor the Boston bombers. I think we can agree those are not representative.

So nothing about this addresses the actual shooters; that's the data we need.

If you don't include ALL of the data, you have a false narrative. It should be clear that mass killers are a very rare breed that can come from most anywhere.

I suspect Bin Laden prayed five times a day, what good did that do?

I suspect also that the shooters that have targeted abortion providers considered themselves religious.
 

DouglasR

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Jan 9, 2019
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Location
East central, Il
@JLS @Hunting Wife
I’m not condoning the violence, I’m telling you, in your specific example hw, what caused the violence.
It doesn’t matter whether it’s right or wrong, it’s what happened.
There were no fist fights on planes over masks before mask mandates. 🤔

Also, that’s a silly example jls.

Not gonna turn this into a covid debate.

I’m done here.
 

JLS

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Almost Arkansas…..
Also, that’s a silly example jls.
Then we’ll have to agree to disagree. The rule in question didn’t CAUSE the violence. A lack of self control or a feeling of narcissistic self entitlement caused it. The rule just exposed it.

This isn’t about Covid. Or masks. It’s about people feeling justified in acting out in ways of violence because they didn’t get their way or don’t like the rules out before them. Ergo, my example I gave which isn’t silly, it’s reflective of an ever increasing attitude.
 

TOGIE

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Dec 13, 2017
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CO
honestly, i think since covid everyone in society lost like a whole collective unit on their patience/tolerance meter. everyone. every last one of us.

i really don't think anyone has been immune to the effects of the last 3ish years.

for many that loss in patience/tolerance was just a bump from patient to slightly less patient. for others it was a bump from already very impatient/intoleran/irrational into the realm of extreme loss of patience and extreme irrationality leading to very extreme behavior. ergo the uptick in every gawdamn thing we've seen the past 3 years, from nearly everyone. for some that resulted in rather extreme behavior others less noticeable, but a change nonetheless. as a collective it made everything a little worse from dang near everyone.
 

DouglasR

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Then we’ll have to agree to disagree. The rule in question didn’t CAUSE the violence. A lack of self control or a feeling of narcissistic self entitlement caused it. The rule just exposed it.

This isn’t about Covid. Or masks. It’s about people feeling justified in acting out in ways of violence because they didn’t get their way or don’t like the rules out before them. Ergo, my example I gave which isn’t silly, it’s reflective of an ever increasing attitude.
You’re putting an unnecessary burden on people that restricts their vision and ability to breathe and you don’t expect them to react?
And it’s the fact that it might not do anything.
Also, when I think of hw’s example I’m thinking of someone being confronted over not having the mask over their nose or perhaps their small child’s face.
Not some dork in a maga hat standing up for his rights.
 

ElkFever2

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Mar 4, 2019
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Iowa
I’ve lived in a few very small towns where everyone knows everyone. In those communities you would be shamed severely for a whole host of antisocial behaviors. You’d also have community leaders reach out to you and your family looking for ways to try and help you, to address the root of what was causing the bad behavior.

2 weeks ago I watched 2 black male youths dressed in designer clothes walk past the bronze Thomas Jefferson statue outside the West Des Moines Scheels. One of them picked up an egg-sized rock and pelted Jefferson in the head, and they both laughed.

My first reaction was a wash of anger. I wanted to confront and lecture them. Then I thought how easily that could go sideways, and I stayed in my truck. They walked over to a 2022 SUV and drove off.

The alleged “video game correlation” to senseless violence is interesting. I’ve played a lot of Oblivion and Skyrim, which are 1st-person medieval adventure games. You CAN do a lot of messed up s—- in those games like murder children, slaughter a whole village, etc. Personally, I cannot make my avatar do that, not that I’d want to, but it does show the restraint 99% of us have towards that kind of behavior in real life, and perhaps how challenging it is to wrap our minds around what allows the 1% of us to carry out such things.

Re: mass school shootings. They are comparatively rare, but our bystander victim toll is starting to pile up on a nationwide scale.
 

SAJ-99

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Jan 5, 2019
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E Washington
Actually, this is neither here nor there. The hypothesis was that shooters lack a solid moral compass, which traditionally in this country has been based on Judeo- Christian values, instilled in the past through not only church/synagogue, but Boy Scouts, etc.

The data that we need is how many of the shooters, not just school, but all mass killers, say, in the last 30 years or so, attended church/synagogue regularly. And please let's not spin this off into cults like Jim Jones/Manson nor the Boston bombers. I think we can agree those are not representative.

So nothing about this addresses the actual shooters; that's the data we need.
When we start measuring everyones moral compass, we can’t just measure mass shootings. How we do it add some other major sins like adultery and child abuse and then separate “church” goers and non-church goers and see how the numbers play out. Theory might have some validity, except that darn catholic priest situation.

I think the general trend to some of the comments is when you feel you are part of a group, you are more likely to abide by the group’s rules. There is peer pressure to do so. The internet and social media gives people a window into the other million of groups out there. Instead of finding one that accepts them, they invariably see themself as an outcast from the million groups where they don’t fit it. Maybe this leads to the problem?
 

Hunting Wife

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Nov 18, 2014
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3,333
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Almost North Dakota, not quite Canada
You’re putting an unnecessary burden on people that restricts their vision and ability to breathe and you don’t expect them to react?
And it’s the fact that it might not do anything.
Also, when I think of hw’s example I’m thinking of someone being confronted over not having the mask over their nose or perhaps their small child’s face.
Not some dork in a maga hat standing up for his rights.
Thanks for the discussion @DouglasR. Regardless of the motives, there are many, many alternative and acceptable options to choose from in most scenarios. Don’t patronize whatever business, get curbside delivery instead, send someone else to the store, etc. Yet some people believe physical violence is the best solution. That demonstrates (to me at least) some kind of mental issue or flawed decision-making model that is a problem in this country. That’s the only point I’m trying to make here.

Call it morals, or family values, or whatever, but my parents taught me that hitting people, pushing people, throwing things at people, and obviously shooting people just because you don’t agree with them or are mad is not acceptable. Period.

I have long felt that a subset of people use religion to excuse some pretty bad behavior, and I feel like recently a lot of people are using “freedom” the same way, and that worries me. The more people abuse “freedom”, the more likely we are to lose it.
 

ajrcktts

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Joined
Sep 19, 2016
Messages
2,369
Location
East TN
Thanks for the discussion @DouglasR. Regardless of the motives, there are many, many alternative and acceptable options to choose from in most scenarios. Don’t patronize whatever business, get curbside delivery instead, send someone else to the store, etc. Yet some people believe physical violence is the best solution. That demonstrates (to me at least) some kind of mental issue or flawed decision-making model that is a problem in this country. That’s the only point I’m trying to make here.

Call it morals, or family values, or whatever, but my parents taught me that hitting people, pushing people, throwing things at people, and obviously shooting people just because you don’t agree with them or are mad is not acceptable. Period.

I have long felt that a subset of people use religion to excuse some pretty bad behavior, and I feel like recently a lot of people are using “freedom” the same way, and that worries me. The more people abuse “freedom”, the more likely we are to lose it.
It's unfortunate that an extremely vocal minority of people living in this country do not feel this way. And the fact that they've been encouraged from people currently or previously in high levels of government is what really concerns me. They've been told that taking our their anger on others or their property is acceptable, so long as your anger can be justified in nearly any way. Leaving irrational people to justify their owner irrational behavior is dangerous territory. I worry about that over the next decade honestly.
 

ImBillT

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Oct 29, 2018
Messages
3,160
Your list did not include the recent release of criminals, reduced sentences of drug related offenses, or impediments to policing related to PR or recent trials.

Let criminals out of prison, you’ll see more crime. Reducing the sentences for certain criminal behavior and expecting that other criminal behavior won’t increase is stupid. Demonizing police and thinking they’ll still do their job to the same level as before is even more stupid.

I’m 100% pro-policing. I’m 0% in favor of militarizing police. Some number of years ago police in the DFW area killed an attacker with a robot delivered bomb. My first thought was that you I was glad they got him. My second and third thought were “WTF did they have such a thing, and should they be allowed to continue to do so?”
 

ImBillT

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Oct 29, 2018
Messages
3,160
If you don't include ALL of the data, you have a false narrative. It should be clear that mass killers are a very rare breed that can come from most anywhere.

I suspect Bin Laden prayed five times a day, what good did that do?

I suspect also that the shooters that have targeted abortion providers considered themselves religious.
Bin Laden’s professed religion was openly hostile, to the point of violence, against unbelievers. That’s not the case with most religions. Abortion “providers” are VERY arguably committing murder. That’s not the case with those targeted by Bin Laden. Feel free to offer a more appropriate example.
 

Nameless Range

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Jun 6, 2013
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Western Montana
I found this podcast episode to be highly enlightening and a great listen on the question of “Why Now”.

Their conjecture is very well informed and data heavy, which I like. There are many deeper points and factors that they discuss, because this cannot be simple, but one very basic fact that spoke loudly to me was this: Of the six largest mass school shootings we have had in the 21st-century in the US, all six were performed by young men who had been deprived of their fathers.

 

HONEYBADGER

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Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
494
Canada was a a British government puppet state and let the British trod all over them as a colony.

So the Canadians stood by and helped as British abused people in foreign lands under the colonial system. Tell me again how Canada is much better……
Canada will be a communist nation in a few years if not sooner.
 

VikingsGuy

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Aug 2, 2017
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Twin Cities
A little off topic but a good listen (minus the Star Trek schtick).

 

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