Target practice on Wild Horses

neffa3

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You think that you can remove horses and everything will become paradise. Deer, antelope, elk everywhere. In truth. Just a few more cows. Nothing else will change.
That is one of the most fatalistic, bass-ackwards, and anti-conservation ideas I've ever heard and am quite shocked that it came from a long-time HT mainstay like your self, who has clearly articulated some very well thought out ideas on conservation in the past.

Just because it won't turn into a Valhalla of big game species, equivalent to the pre-colonial times, doesn't mean it's not worth doing. That idea alone run counter to EVERY SINGLE conservation project, action, and goal out there. Perfection will never be achieved, but should not hinder good projects.
 

BrentD

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That is one of the most fatalistic, bass-ackwards, and anti-conservation ideas I've ever heard and am quite shocked that it came from a long-time HT mainstay like your self, who has clearly articulated some very well thought out ideas on conservation in the past.

What evidence do you have to conclude otherwise? Perhaps you need a reality check. I'm not being an anti-conservationist, I'm being a pragmatic, 21st-century realist.

Let's compare apples and apples - like both sides of Highway 20.
 

Stocker

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Ok. If we can’t shoot them, how about testing A-bombs again, use up the remaining mustard gas. See if we can plug a volcano with them.


I’m just spitballing here.
 

neffa3

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What evidence do you have to conclude otherwise? Perhaps you need a reality check.
So based on your logic we should stop doing salmon restoration. Reality is that we'll never get salmon back to where there were in 1800. So write em off, F' em, let's be pragmatic, let's get REAL.

Here's some evidence since the google is apparently too much.
1660244736135.png
1660244765333.png
1660244793957.png
 

mtnrunner260

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This used to be a spring that flowed, not a river but produced.
There are a handful of deer and antelope. No cattle grazing for over 60 years.
Horses are the change.
Is it this bad everywhere? No but make no mistake that feral horses are having a significant impact on the range.
At this point the only sensible management strategy is to reduce their numbers. The dead one died from malnutrition as far as I can tell.
Oh and here's a final pic to show I'm not anti horse but pro education. TimePhoto_20220727_104823.jpg TimePhoto_20220727_120103.jpg

20220721_123413.jpg
 

windymtnman

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10,000 years.
Yes.
We Christians don't even believe that God created the world as we know it 10,000 years ago. I suppose I'm creating a secondary argument just saying that, but I have foundational beliefs that have me disregarding your answer. Even if you were correct, how can you defend "10,000 years"? Why can't it be 15,000, or 15,000,000?
 

neffa3

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Even if you were correct, how can you defend "10,000 years"? Why can't it be 15,000, or 15,000,000?
Also acceptable answers. Evolution is not consistent across time nor species, but in general the slower the reproduction the longer it takes.

How can I defend? Well that Sir is an entire discipline in and of itself and a bit too much for me to peck out on HT.
 

Don Fischer

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Problem can't be that bad. Many years ago I picked up a load of swinging horse's in Redmond, Ore that went to Boston, Mass and there on a ship to France where horse is used for food. Hard thing to do as I like horse's. But in the end is it really anyworse than raising cows for meat? We have in this country built in adaptor's about just what we eat. SEA the raise dog's for food, I can't get into that but then I've never been that hungry either!

BTW, that horse slaughter plant was burned down over 30 yrs ago!
 

antlerradar

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Problem can't be that bad. Many years ago I picked up a load of swinging horse's in Redmond, Ore that went to Boston, Mass and there on a ship to France where horse is used for food. Hard thing to do as I like horse's. But in the end is it really anyworse than raising cows for meat? We have in this country built in adaptor's about just what we eat. SEA the raise dog's for food, I can't get into that but then I've never been that hungry either!

BTW, that horse slaughter plant was burned down over 30 yrs ago!
Neighbors just rounded up with a helicopter and shipped a whole bunch of "wild horses" to Canada. I bet a bunch of them went on to France.
 

windymtnman

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Also acceptable answers. Evolution is not consistent across time nor species, but in general the slower the reproduction the longer it takes.

How can I defend? Well that Sir is an entire discipline in and of itself and a bit too much for me to peck out on HT.
Fair enough answer. As for the readers that believe in evolution rather than God's creation, I'd like them to tell me how this happens in evolution. That is, you have a caterpillar with a multi segmented body and a pair of legs on each segment. The caterpillar weaves itself a cocoon around itself, and while inside in a short period of time, sort of turns itself into a blob of cells, and with it's DNA onboard, soon emerges as a totally different insect. It's become a butterfly or moth with a head, abdomen, and thorax with 6 legs and a pair of wings to fly away with. How did and why did evolution manage to do that?
 

neffa3

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Fair enough answer. As for the readers that believe in evolution rather than God's creation, I'd like them to tell me how this happens in evolution. That is, you have a caterpillar with a multi segmented body and a pair of legs on each segment. The caterpillar weaves itself a cocoon around itself, and while inside in a short period of time, sort of turns itself into a blob of cells, and with it's DNA onboard, soon emerges as a totally different insect. It's become a butterfly or moth with a head, abdomen, and thorax with 6 legs and a pair of wings to fly away with. How did and why did evolution manage to do that?
While that example is interesting, it's really no different than the evolutionary history of any creature.

Unlike Creation, which can be explained in a few simply sentences, evolution is a bit more elaborate. I don't think anyone that can say with any specificity what environmental pressures or mutations led to the atypical butterfly evolutionary strategy you reference.

However, here are a couple of links if you're genuinely interesting in evolution.

Lastly, this one may be a bit too confrontational, but certainly tackles the conflict head on.
 

ShootsManyBullets

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So how long until we can get a go fund me for some ammo and provisions to go out and do a public service on these ferals. If they were feral cats or pigs or hairless dogs would anyone care?
 

windymtnman

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While that example is interesting, it's really no different than the evolutionary history of any creature.

Unlike Creation, which can be explained in a few simply sentences, evolution is a bit more elaborate. I don't think anyone that can say with any specificity what environmental pressures or mutations led to the atypical butterfly evolutionary strategy you reference.

However, here are a couple of links if you're genuinely interesting in evolution.

Lastly, this one may be a bit too confrontational, but certainly tackles the conflict head on.
For all you readers a couple questions, wherein I am not the Judge of your answers as to right and wrong.
1. Do you believe in God?
2. If you believe in things like evolution, rather than giving God the glory and credit for creating the world, right down to the
complexity of DNA, RNA, cellular processes, and the infinite ability to have everything work perfectly, will that in part determine
where you spend eternity. (Assuming you believe in eternal life for those that do believe?
(I sat in college classrooms for 4 yrs. paying good money to listen to my esteemed professors telling me about biology, evolution and the like and sucked it all up. But then, I did my own studying about things like intelligent design, and irreduceable complexity, and then listened to a few molecular scientists that spend 30 years looking at the complexity of what can only be seen and understood with high powered and electron microscopes. These people walked away thinking there is no way all this was created by mutations and evolution. It could never happen, no matter how many miilion years of time you gave it to come into place. Then I read the Bible and realized that it's all in that book. My advice for anyone scoffing at what I'm saying is do your own homework, and then come away with your own opinions of what is true and what are unproven theories. Best wishes.
 

appaloosa

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Upper Green River, WY
For all you readers a couple questions, wherein I am not the Judge of your answers as to right and wrong.
1. Do you believe in God?
2. If you believe in things like evolution, rather than giving God the glory and credit for creating the world, right down to the
complexity of DNA, RNA, cellular processes, and the infinite ability to have everything work perfectly, will that in part determine
where you spend eternity. (Assuming you believe in eternal life for those that do believe?
(I sat in college classrooms for 4 yrs. paying good money to listen to my esteemed professors telling me about biology, evolution and the like and sucked it all up. But then, I did my own studying about things like intelligent design, and irreduceable complexity, and then listened to a few molecular scientists that spend 30 years looking at the complexity of what can only be seen and understood with high powered and electron microscopes. These people walked away thinking there is no way all this was created by mutations and evolution. It could never happen, no matter how many miilion years of time you gave it to come into place. Then I read the Bible and realized that it's all in that book. My advice for anyone scoffing at what I'm saying is do your own homework, and then come away with your own opinions of what is true and what are unproven theories. Best wishes.
Also, you need to ask yourselves:
3. Do you believe in Santa Clause?
 

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