Take Back Your Elk

Big Fin

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He seems like a person you'd have some lively discussion with that a lot of us would like to hear.
This podcast with @abqbw and Jesse drops tomorrow morning. Great conversation that gets to the core of the Public Trust Doctrine and Trustee duties to the Beneficiaries (state citizens).

You can find it where ever you consume your podcasts.
 

David58

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Oct 13, 2020
Messages
460
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Northern NM
General rule of thumb, follow the money (and power)
It is certainly that here in NM. The system has no transparency, and when a landowner sells those tags he/she is not giving the State a cut past the sales tax, so it really does nothing to enhance the herd except through the NR licenses. The amounts of money are ridiculous - and the landowners are making money off of animals that belong to the people of the state. Supposedly that's who owns them.

David
NM
 

abqbw

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Dec 21, 2015
Messages
147
It is certainly that here in NM. The system has no transparency, and when a landowner sells those tags he/she is not giving the State a cut past the sales tax, so it really does nothing to enhance the herd except through the NR licenses. The amounts of money are ridiculous - and the landowners are making money off of animals that belong to the people of the state. Supposedly that's who owns them.

David
NM
The people of New Mexico do in fact own the wildlife of the state. Same as in every other state. Certainly our state officials don’t recognize that reality even though it is their irrefutable public trustee obligation to do so. They just ignore the most basic public trust principles.
 

Big Fin

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Bumping this because damn if it isn’t worth listening to

I'm glad you liked it. I wanted to illustrate the point in NM that is so similar in most every challenge we face in wildlife conflict or allocation. If our Trustees do/will not represent the beneficiaries (citizens of the state) and we do not hold them accountable, we lose. Let's win.

Thanks to Brandon and Jesse for taking that amount of time from their calendars with such short notice. Thanks for listening.
 

Valley1320

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May 5, 2019
Messages
812
Location
East central NM
This podcast with @abqbw and Jesse drops tomorrow morning. Great conversation that gets to the core of the Public Trust Doctrine and Trustee duties to the Beneficiaries (state citizens).

You can find it where ever you consume your podcasts.
I know what I'll be listening to them tomorrow. Thanks guys!
 

gburk

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Jan 10, 2020
Messages
114
Anyone else scanning listings for the 40 acres for sale reputed to have 15(?!) LO tags allocated? I may have misheard that. It sounds way out of whack but I might also be interested in making an offer.
 

hank4elk

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Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
7,232
Location
SW NM
Just finished and it was an interesting discussion. A Pollack of info thrown out. Some factual or spot on. I do hope it stirs changes in NM. But...or maybe I should keep my mouth shut.

News Flash! Politicians and their appointees are corrupt by nature and they have been enabled. This Gov, is no different than the last 3 I have ignored after their true colors are bare. NM has been the leader in this aspect since 1500.
I have not seen a Mr. Smith in a while. Sorry situation. And I love this state...

That listing info rumor is not quite right...40 ac in 15 and elk tags ....a realtors omission and purposeful mistake. I may be wrong but I have never seen a 40 ac place get 15 tags in the NMG&F website of landowners listings. So...sorry.

My take is obviously biased.
I'm a NM resident, lifelong public land hunter and a landowner now. I was also asked by G&F to enroll in the E-PLUS program 13 years ago when I bought this little bit of heaven I call home. I did. Seen all the BULLL...BS this fine state has to offer. My place has gotten too many and too few . My unit has gone from off the radar, no elks there... to part of the Greater Gila Herd and now to the Fence Lake herd. Whatever that is.
G&F only fully sort of went through a few units the last 4 year meeting time....5 years ago? Mine was one. 60% private 40% public. A few draw tags and way too many, call them LO tags or vouchers and for insanely small or useless places.
Some good changes happened and some same old boy school bs. A bunch of ranches could not meet the basic requirements of the program(Which I asked for the science of several times personally of G&F staff) and cut out , the remaining LO tags were cut in half and the draw exploded. Except for a couple huge places....owned by non residents.

My wish list...

90% Resident in draw. 10 % NR.
NO outfitter welfare. NO OUT OF STATE OUTFITTERS!!!! NO BROKERS!
E-PLUS needs changes. Fully go through all the ranches in E-PLUS in all the units with the same requirements.
Must open access to public lands if in UW.
No ranch not occupied by the LO by a NM resident does not get vouchers.
NR only get 10% of LO tags. ??? Residents get ALL?
Premium/OIL elk tags ,become just that. or a wait period between applications if drawn.

Residents need to pick up the slack if any of this is to happen. Big time.

Me ,I'm hunting my place with a late draw tag this year, again. Gave away 4 tags,3 to local family. My bro has the cow tag, if he shows.
Fully in the Habitat Enhancement program, out of AG exemption,no livestock in 6 years. Spent a bunch on the well and water for wildlife. Fences and gates always need mending.
Now I'm being pressed for more projects,$, spent. I guess the improvements only count for 3 years.
Guess what. I'm done. I am spending my retirement $ working on my home and a shop and trying to survive cancer on my own. 140 ac SCR RO. I do not sell the LO vouchers. I give them to deserving folks. Mostly NM residents.

Take the tags.

I'll cruise the interweb and watch how NM finds a way to fully fund a G&F dept the way it needs to be funded.
15 years ago my county Parks Dept. had a bigger budget than $40 mill. LOL

And I'm watching elk leave my place again this morning with Rio by my side. Off onto the public lands we all get to enjoy.

Have at it....
 
Last edited:

oxn939

Active member
Joined
Sep 21, 2017
Messages
155
Just finished and it was an interesting discussion. A Pollack of info thrown out. Some factual or spot on. I do hope it stirs changes in NM. But...or maybe I should keep my mouth shut.

News Flash! Politicians and their appointees are corrupt by nature and they have been enabled. This Gov, is no different than the last 3 I have ignored after their true colors are bare. NM has been the leader in this aspect since 1500.
I have not seen a Mr. Smith in a while. Sorry situation. And I love this state...

That listing info rumor is not quite right...40 ac in 15 and elk tags ....a realtors omission and purposeful mistake. I may be wrong but I have never seen a 40 ac place get 15 tags in the NMG&F website of landowners listings. So...sorry.

My take is obviously biased.
I'm a NM resident, lifelong public land hunter and a landowner now. I was also asked by G&F to enroll in the E-PLUS program 13 years ago when I bought this little bit of heaven I call home. I did. Seen all the BULLL...BS this fine state has to offer. My place has gotten too many and too few . My unit has gone from off the radar, no elks there... to part of the Greater Gila Herd and now to the Fence Lake herd. Whatever that is.
G&F only fully sort of went through a few units the last 4 year meeting time....5 years ago? Mine was one. 60% private 40% public. A few draw tags and way too many, call them LO tags or vouchers and for insanely small or useless places.
Some good changes happened and some same old boy school bs. A bunch of ranches could not meet the basic requirements of the program(Which I asked for the science of several times personally of G&F staff) and cut out , the remaining LO tags were cut in half and the draw exploded. Except for a couple huge places....owned by non residents.

My wish list...

90% Resident in draw. 10 % NR.
NO outfitter welfare. NO OUT OF STATE OUTFITTERS!!!! NO BROKERS!
E-PLUS needs changes. Fully go through all the ranches in E-PLUS in all the units with the same requirements.
Must open access to public lands if in UW.
No ranch not occupied by the LO by a NM resident does not get vouchers.
NR only get 10% of LO tags. ??? Residents get ALL?
Premium/OIL elk tags ,become just that. or a wait period between applications if drawn.

Residents need to pick up the slack if any of this is to happen. Big time.

Me ,I'm hunting my place with a late draw tag this year, again. Gave away 4 tags,3 to local family. My bro has the cow tag, if he shows.
Fully in the Habitat Enhancement program, out of AG exemption,no livestock in 6 years. Spent a bunch on the well and water for wildlife. Fences and gates always need mending.
Now I'm being pressed for more projects,$, spent. I guess the improvements only count for 3 years.
Guess what. I'm done. I am spending my retirement $ working on my home and a shop and trying to survive cancer on my own. 140 ac SCR RO. I do not sell the LO vouchers. I give them to deserving folks. Mostly NM residents.

Take the tags.

I'll cruise the interweb and watch how NM finds a way to fully fund a G&F dept the way it needs to be funded.
15 years ago my county Parks Dept. had a bigger budget than $40 mill. LOL

And I'm watching elk leave my place again this morning with Rio by my side. Off onto the public lands we all get to enjoy.

Have at it....

Pretty wild to hear takes like this on it. I applied in NM as a DIY nonresident a few times, but the fees now are too much for me to reasonably afford. Sad to hear that the residents are getting shafted even worse than NRs.

I guided a backpacking trip through the Gila this past May, and it was a really incredible experience unlike anywhere else I've ever been. Fingers crossing something changes and government stops doing what it does best...
 

hank4elk

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Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
7,232
Location
SW NM
Pretty wild to hear takes like this on it. I applied in NM as a DIY nonresident a few times, but the fees now are too much for me to reasonably afford. Sad to hear that the residents are getting shafted even worse than NRs.

I guided a backpacking trip through the Gila this past May, and it was a really incredible experience unlike anywhere else I've ever been. Fingers crossing something changes and government stops doing what it does best...
I drew 8 of 12 times for MB elk as a NR. Some back before outfitter pool. Still cheap tags, cheaper than other states.
Drawn 6 tags in 13 years for elk as a resident. Dirt cheap lic. and tags for residents. Dirt.

There has to be common ground. Ranch lands across NM have benefited wildlife habitat and opportunity. All or nothing does nothing it seems.
There are way more elk than G&F admits too.
Imaginary mule deer it seems.
 
Last edited:

abqbw

Active member
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Messages
147
Anyone else scanning listings for the 40 acres for sale reputed to have 15(?!) LO tags allocated? I may have misheard that. It sounds way out of whack but I might also be interested in making an offer.
If you are unable to find the 40 acres Jesse mentioned, during 2021, 314 ranches of 50 or less acres received private elk permits through EPLUS, 253 of these are 20 acres or less, 98 are 10 acres or less, and 25 are 5 acres or less. Finding a small parcel with private landowner permits should not be too difficult.
 

gburk

Active member
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Messages
114
If you are unable to find the 40 acres Jesse mentioned, during 2021, 314 ranches of 50 or less acres received private elk permits through EPLUS, 253 of these are 20 acres or less, 98 are 10 acres or less, and 25 are 5 acres or less. Finding a small parcel with private landowner permits should not be too difficult.
Right, but how many of those aren't SCRs receiving only a fractional chance at receiving up to 1 tag? That's quite a bit different from a small property receiving 1 tag, let alone more than 1, on a recurring basis. I don't know the draw odds on those SCRs (and I have no doubt they are better than NR :D) but to say that "x ranches of a certain size and smaller received tags" doesn't give the full picture if 10x that number had applied for them in a given year, does it?

I'm generally sympathetic to arguments against Eplus, but if it's a matter of degree, the actual existence of a 40 acre property receiving 15 tags annually would be clear evidence. Which is why it stuck out when I heard it.

thanks for your response.
 

hank4elk

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Joined
Jan 8, 2015
Messages
7,232
Location
SW NM
Also this property has an easy fix.
It is flat farmland, ditch irrigated and a easy fence job.
I agree this property is not the same as a rangeland ranch.
It should not get tags IMHO.
 

David58

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 13, 2020
Messages
460
Location
Northern NM
The people of New Mexico do in fact own the wildlife of the state. Same as in every other state. Certainly our state officials don’t recognize that reality even though it is their irrefutable public trustee obligation to do so. They just ignore the most basic public trust principles.
"Public Trust" - in New Mexico? The most corrupt state in the 50? They very consciously ignore the most basic public trust principles. Consciously and intentionally.

David
NM
 
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