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[BigHornRam]

My understanding is that native herds like the Beartooths, Absarokas, Salmon River, and Selway, in general have slow horn growth. Look at Sun River sheep, same thing. Transplant them to new uninhabited territory like the Breaks and look out, though. Seems like some of transplanted herds horn growth slows down after the herds get to carrying capacity, but who really knows for sure.

 

[BigHornRam]

Quality of mothers milk plays a huge roll in how big the ram will get also.

 

[BigHornRam]

Interesting thought- But I would say it's possibly more a genetic factor. 302- the Hilgards, mimics some of the Beartooth in many ways, yet is managed differently, and thus, produces more large rams. The 2nd 501 ram this year is a testament that the Beartooths can produce large rams, not on the scale of the Breaks, but still. Perhaps a better comparison yet is many of the record Rams coming from Alberta- I won't say they are enduring a Beartooth Winter in all areas of Alberta, but the Canadian Rockies are no slouch, either. I have no doubt that diet and habitat make a difference. But to what extent, I can't say.

I think you would have to abduct and transplant a Beartooth ram into the Breaks and then monitor him for the duration of his life, while simultaneously doing the opposite to a Breaks ram.

I remember they transplanted some sheep from the Breaks into the Devils Canyon, Wyoming. More rocks than grass in that country. One young ram from that transplant, grew up to be a real big ram, and was taken by a lucky hunter. Not sure of the age he was taken at, still fairly young if I recall the story right. (Looked it up. Ram was 6.5 when harvested and measured 186"+)

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

Sounds like ewe health may be attributed to ram horn size.

Sheep study

 

[A2Z]

I believe Steve Rinellia had some biologist of some sort on a couple weeks ago that said genetics don’t play as big of a factor as we think in antler growth referencing mule deer. It’s more of how healthy the doe was during the pregnancy. I would think it would be similar for rams.

Longtime reader of this thread finally have something to contribute too haha

 

[rjthehunter]

I believe Steve Rinellia had some biologist of some sort on a couple weeks ago that said genetics don’t play as big of a factor as we think in antler growth referencing mule deer. It’s more of how healthy the doe was during the pregnancy. I would think it would be similar for rams.

Longtime reader of this thread finally have something to contribute too haha

I remember that. Antler growth was determined on the does health and diet during pregnancy. I don't know if being a horned animal makes a difference, but I would certainly think it would apply to all antlered animals.

 

[NVBighorn]

Quality of mothers milk plays a huge roll in how big the ram will get also.

Are you saying the Boddington ram was still nursing its mom?

 

[NVBighorn]

My opinions on horn size. I am no scientist but have had conversations on this topic with real life scientists. So take this with a grain of salt.

1. Genetics – I believe this has to be the top decision maker. A tribe of 4’6” pygmies are not likely to ever sport an NBA team from their own children. Small, isolated populations that lack genetic interchange and diversity can make the gene pool stagnant. Moving sheep around, either by man’s translocation or natural pioneering or ram forays, can result in a hybrid vigor bump. It can also result in disease transmission, if present (see #3)

2. Nutrition - both in the womb and throughout their lives. The womb is a long-term influence. Annual variations are usually single year or time period specific causing a motorboating effect on horn growth.

3. Stress – Hard winters, bad droughts, disease events etc. can have time period specific motorboating just as nutrition does. Depending on the severity of the stress factor it could be a lifetime impact as well.

Obviously, there are exceptions to all of this

 

[brocksw]

@BigHornRam @Carl 9.3x62 @rjthehunter @NVBighorn

Dr. Kevin Monteith is the man behind the science when it comes to bighorn horn size and deer antler size. I believe he did a majority of his horn/antler studies in the Sierra Nevadas for sheep and South Dakota for deer.

"Horn Size and Nutrition in Mountain Sheep: Can Ewe Handle the Truth?" Was the name of one of the articles by Dr.Monteith, i cant seem to find a full copy available on the web without paying. I have his email though and i know for fact hed be happy to send it over if requested. I think he has several different pieces out there regarding body mass and horn size as it relates to nutrition and overall health of the mom. Very interesting work, he's continuing to do some great things in the research department. He should have all of our support.

Here's short interview on some of the info from the above paper.

New study says nutrition, mother health more important to growing large bighorn sheep than genetics

Next time you admire a bighorn sheep ram with full curls winding around the sides of his face – thank the big guy’s mom. It’s her nutrition that planted the

trib.com

Here's his website

Ungulate Compendium

ungulatecompendium.org

 

[RobertD]

I wonder how much horn core growth influences horn growth, or if it does at all. I would assume sheep that grow big horns at a younger age grow their horn core faster too. But it may be that the core just grows to keep up with the horn and not the other way around. I don't know.

 

[BigHornRam]

@BigHornRam @Carl 9.3x62 @rjthehunter @NVBighorn

Dr. Kevin Monteith is the man behind the science when it comes to bighorn horn size and deer antler size. I believe he did a majority of his horn/antler studies in the Sierra Nevadas for sheep and South Dakota for deer.

"Horn Size and Nutrition in Mountain Sheep: Can Ewe Handle the Truth?" Was the name of one of the articles by Dr.Monteith, i cant seem to find a full copy available on the web without paying. I have his email though and i know for fact hed be happy to send it over if requested. I think he has several different pieces out there regarding body mass and horn size as it relates to nutrition and overall health of the mom. Very interesting work, he's continuing to do some great things in the research department. He should have all of our support.

Here's short interview on some of the info from the above paper.

New study says nutrition, mother health more important to growing large bighorn sheep than genetics

Next time you admire a bighorn sheep ram with full curls winding around the sides of his face – thank the big guy’s mom. It’s her nutrition that planted the

trib.com

Here's his website

Ungulate Compendium

ungulatecompendium.org

I've read the Tribune article when it came out. Good article. I will checkout the website.

 

[shines@times]

To all the lovers of wilderness adventure in general, and especially the fans of hunting wild sheep in ridiculous conditions who participate in this forum:

 

[shines@times]

Interesting thought- But I would say it's possibly more a genetic factor. 302- the Hilgards, mimics some of the Beartooth in many ways, yet is managed differently, and thus, produces more large rams. The 2nd 501 ram this year is a testament that the Beartooths can produce large rams, not on the scale of the Breaks, but still. Perhaps a better comparison yet is many of the record Rams coming from Alberta- I won't say they are enduring a Beartooth Winter in all areas of Alberta, but the Canadian Rockies are no slouch, either. I have no doubt that diet and habitat make a difference. But to what extent, I can't say.

I think you would have to abduct and transplant a Beartooth ram into the Breaks and then monitor him for the duration of his life, while simultaneously doing the opposite to a Breaks ram.

I listed the factors: Genetics, nutrition and environmental stress in the order of their influence per my understanding. My comment on the severe winter weather in the Beartooth country was directed at the "stress" element in particular. I guess I could have written more clearly.

I am still curious about the effect of altitude, though I think we need a bigger sample than one for your transplant experiment; and I fear 500, 501 and 502 can hardly spare the subjects .

longrunner made a comment that, if correct, would certainly seem relevant: "In general, plant productivity and nutritional value appears to be inverse to elevation. Alpine meadows are not as productive as bottomlands."

 

[YoungGun]

I listed the factors: Genetics, nutrition and environmental stress in the order of their influence per my understanding. My comment on the severe winter weather in the Beartooth country was directed at the "stress" element in particular. I guess I could have written more clearly.

I am still curious about the effect of altitude, though I think we need a bigger sample than one for your transplant experiment; and I fear 500, 501 and 502 can hardly spare the subjects .

longrunner made a comment that, if correct, would certainly seem relevant: "In general, plant productivity and nutritional value appears to be inverse to elevation. Alpine meadows are not as productive as bottomlands."

Sorry if I came off the wrong way- I meant it as more an affirmation in regards to the genetics factor you listed. My comment was mainly focused on the points of altitude and nutrition and comparing alternate herds with similar nutrition and elevations as the Beartooths.

 

[Steve O]

I am not defending the Boddington ram. I would not have shot that ram and I have passed on shooting longer Unlimited rams.

This is the last Unlimited ram that I shot. The year before I shot him, I passed on shooting him and another ram that looked like his twin, both standing broadside 20 yards from me. I actually picked up a golf ball size rock and threw it underhand and hit one of the rams.

This ram also has the shortest horns of any of my Unlimited unit rams. He is also the oldest. FWP and I both aged him at 9 1/2 years old. A string from the base of the front of his right horn through the back of his eye, just barely touched the tip of his right horn. The same measurement on his left horn makes him legal by 2 1/4".

While I was having him measured at FWD headquarters, another hunter brought in a ram that he had just shot in one of Montana's premier sheep units. That ram was aged at 4 1/2 years old and he green scored over 190 B&C inches.

@buffybr

What is the rifle/cartridge/scope setup there? Looks pretty classic.

I will second the tough dog comment. Looks like a golden retriever! Must be mixed with a little St. Bernard.

 

[buffybr]

@buffybr

What is the rifle/cartridge/scope setup there? Looks pretty classic.

I will second the tough dog comment. Looks like a golden retriever! Must be mixed with a little St. Bernard.

That's the rifle that I used on all of my sheep hunts. It's a Mauser Mark X barreled action that I had re-chambered to .257 Ackley, shooting 117 grain Sierra GameKing handloads. The stock is Fajen Fancy walnut that I fit to that barrelled action, finished and hand checkered with my favorite 5 panel wrap around pattern. The scope that I had on it back then was a Leupold M8 6x32. One of my favorite rifles for over 40 years.

Yes, that dog was Taffy, my Golden Retriever hunting partner for many of my hunts.

 

[Steve O]

Yep PURE classic! Thanks.

 

[shines@times]

Sorry if I came off the wrong way- I meant it as more an affirmation in regards to the genetics factor you listed. My comment was mainly focused on the points of altitude and nutrition and comparing alternate herds with similar nutrition and elevations as the Beartooths.

No problem, you did not come off wrong--your commentary simply made me realize that I could have structured my posting in a clearer manner.

 

[winmag]

I just got advance notice of an award to be presented to Donna Boddington for her achievement in harvesting her unlimited ram. This is informally known as the Dink Award, which will be presented annually to the hunter who harvests the smallest ram in an unlimited unit.

 

[dgc1963]

Well looking at making plans this summer to be out west and getting into one of the unlimited units been researching for yrs now killing 2 birds with one stone vacation/seeing the lay of the land wont have tag this yr due to other hunting trips and cant do both in the fall
Ill have the tag in 2023 and plan on doing every other yr for a few yrs between other hunts Im really looking forward to a new hunting adventure