Montana FWP pheasant scam

woods89

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Is that a problem?

I’m struggling with the idea of guaranteeing success? Doesn’t this set the precedent that a “successful” hunt is one where you get something.

Kinda dovetails with the bizzare, my opinion, of reserving premium tags for kids in some states.

To a 10 year old- “Welcome to hunting, it’s all about killing shit, and the best things to kill have huge racks. All other aspects are unimportant.”

Personally, I enjoy wandering around the mountains with a super low shot to day ratio, some folks like feeder hunting in Texas… to each their own.
Bingo.

Growing up, we wandered miles, in the snow, in cotton jeans, with wet feet. Birds were sometimes few and far between. I and my brothers are all enthusiastic hunters.

Oh, and it was uphill both ways..... :)

My feeling is that people need to be honest with kids, and that means showing them what hunting looks like in an unvarnished sense. If they decide they don't like it, so be it.
 

wllm

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Bingo.

Growing up, we wandered miles, in the snow, in cotton jeans, with wet feet. Birds were sometimes few and far between. I and my brothers are all enthusiastic hunters.

Oh, and it was uphill both ways..... :)

My feeling is that people need to be honest with kids, and that means showing them what hunting looks like in an unvarnished sense. If they decide they don't like it, so be it.
“I really want my kid to love (baseball/football/soccer/ whatever… but they won’t like it if they don’t always win, so let’s just give them all trophies”
 

texwest44

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FWP perspective: Our focus is on funding and numbers - kids who bag birds are more likely to continue hunting into their fee-paying years, so lets make sure they get one, circumstances not withstanding. Ethics and culture and such are up for the public to manage.

Ethical hunter perspective: Our focus is quality, dignified hunting and kids who bag dumb birds might not be learning the right lessons and methods, and could potentially make the hunting culture and situation worse in future years, and the government shouldn't encourage such behavior.

Kid perspective: maaaaan I hope dad takes us to McDonald's after this.

I'm with the folks who don't appreciate the idea of stuffing pheasants in a pen for most of a year, fattening them up with cereal grains, then launching them out of catapults for children to haphazardly shoot at. We also know that many young people don't carry hunting and fishing traditions because "it's hard and I hate going out there and never getting anything."

I guess the question(s) become(s), "what is the government's role in creating and sustaining new youth hunters and anglers, and what kind of ethical or legal concessions are acceptable in that pursuit? How do we make those determinations?"

While y'all hash that out, I'm going to grab a mcmuffin.
 

woods89

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I guess the question(s) become(s), "what is the government's role in creating and sustaining new youth hunters and anglers, and what kind of ethical or legal concessions are acceptable in that pursuit? How do we make those determinations?"
Should the government have a role in creating and sustaining new rock climbers? Disk golfers? Off road enthusiasts?

I'd say let people find their passions themselves.
 

OntarioHunter

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Should the government have a role in creating and sustaining new rock climbers? Disk golfers? Off road enthusiasts?

I'd say let people find their passions themselves.
Right on. I'm seeing plenty of pressure on the resource now. I'm sorry but I just don't see the benefit of putting more pressure on it. I agree, it's better for the youth AND the resource to let young folks find their own way to that passion. I TOTALLY do not agree with creating false environments specifically for youth. That has been total bullshit from the beginning, whether it's planting birds or allocating special licenses or seasons. It is fake. Hunting and fishing should be genuine.
 

Gerald Martin

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I am all about prisoner rehabilitation, youth hunter recruitment, and increasing pheasant numbers.

1. Prisoner work programs should be paid for from the general fund, not FWP funds.

2. A less than authentic hunting experience using put and take birds to guarantee youth hunters success doesn’t create long
term hunters.

3. Increasing bird numbers is all about improving habitat. Put that money into hedgerows and winter cover and you will see far more birds in ten years than this program will produce.
 

westbranch

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Idaho has been expanding their pheasant stocking the last couple of years. I knew nothing about it when it started but after reading up on them I am not a fan. Better use of funds out there.
 

Gellar

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Funding prisons shouldn't come from sportsmen's dollars...that's absurd and I don't care how much "good" it does for inmates.

They can make license plates and bake cookies on general fund money.

How anyone could think catapulted birds is ok is another real head scratcher.

Why not just a clay pigeon at that point? Catapult a packaged tyson chicken for that matter. Way cheaper and no plucking required.

We wonder why hunting is tanking?
They are not funding prisons. They are funding a sportsman program using the prison system. Do you suggest they raise the pheasants using regular staff at $20/ hour vs the 5$/day they are paying the prisoners?

The kids already shoot clay pigeons and eat all the pizza they can eat before they go to the field so theirs no need for any of that, just wasting more sportsman dollars.
Launching pheasants for kids to shoot? Really? Why not put a hotdog stand out there for them too. Better make sure there's data available for their games.

Prisoners can be a lot more passionate about their work if they know it's not stupid useless make work bullshit. Just as well have them making license plates or postal bags. Lots of jobs for that on the outside after they are paroled. Pffft!

One of the better programs at Deer Lodge is horsehair weaving. Those guys make fabulous tack and horse accessories and the stuff goes for very high prices. Not sure it's something that easily translates into a civilian job but they are learning to make a hands on craft pay ... and pay well. That can be translated to anything from plumbing to carpentry.
How can horsehair weaving be translated to plumbing and carpentry? raising pheasants is much more applicable to farming and raising livestock then horsehair weaving is to plumbing and carpentry.
Is that a problem?

I’m struggling with the idea of guaranteeing success? Doesn’t this set the precedent that a “successful” hunt is one where you get something.

Kinda dovetails with the bizzare, my opinion, of reserving premium tags for kids in some states.

To a 10 year old- “Welcome to hunting, it’s all about killing shit, and the best things to kill have huge racks. All other aspects are unimportant.”

Personally, I enjoy wandering around the mountains with a super low shot to day ratio, some folks like feeder hunting in Texas… to each their own.
Its not guaranteeing the kid gets the pheasant, but it is setting them up to have a more enjoyable day. You may enjoy wandering around a field for hours on end, but a 10 year old kid who just graduated hunters safety does not. They want to shoot something, its called the 5 stages of a sportsman.
 

Gerald Martin

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We are directly stating that Montana FWP should be using their funds for habitat, not stocking pen raised pheasants.

Up to one million dollars per year towards habitat would result in far more pheasants over the next decade and beyond than feeding hawks and coyotes with easy meals.

Something else not being talked about is the potential to introduce diseases from pen raised birds to wild birds through this stocking program.

Not suggesting anything.
 
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BuzzH

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They are not funding prisons. They are funding a sportsman program using the prison system. Do you suggest they raise the pheasants using regular staff at $20/ hour vs the 5$/day they are paying the prisoners?

The kids already shoot clay pigeons and eat all the pizza they can eat before they go to the field so theirs no need for any of that, just wasting more sportsman dollars.

How can horsehair weaving be translated to plumbing and carpentry? raising pheasants is much more applicable to farming and raising livestock then horsehair weaving is to plumbing and carpentry.

Its not guaranteeing the kid gets the pheasant, but it is setting them up to have a more enjoyable day. You may enjoy wandering around a field for hours on end, but a 10 year old kid who just graduated hunters safety does not. They want to shoot something, its called the 5 stages of a sportsman.
Did you read the article? The milk cow program goes down the drain so the legislature passes the idiotic pheasant farm program. A program that diverts sportsmen's dollars to the prison system.

Just about makes up for the lost revenue from the milk program.

This isn't being driven by the FWP, but by the legislature. The problem is the FWP director is a good boy and isn't pushing back against this crap plan. Further, there is no data to suggest that catapulted farm birds does anything for hunter recruitment. Taking the whole program into the abyss is that Hank isn't allowing any kind of study to be conducted to show if it's working or not. Wonder why that would be? Sit Hank, Sit...good boy!

IMO, this is about 98% about funding the prison system and about 2% bullshit trying to make it into a feel good program about youth hunters and participation trophies.

PT Barnum was right...and you're buying it hook, line, and sinker.
 

BuzzH

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We are directly stating that Montana FWP should be using their funds for habitat, not stocking pen raised pheasants.

Up to one million dollars per year towards habitat would result in far more pheasants over the next decade and beyond than feeding hawks and coyotes with easy meals.

Something else not being talked about is the potential to introduce diseases from pen raised birds to wild birds through this stocking program.

Not suggesting anything.
Bingo
 

Hammsolo

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There are multiple layers to this story that I think are key to discussion. A few topics and questions I have. In no particular order, and not limited too…

1. Native vs. Non-native species - why are we fighting to release non-native and fighting to kill native species?

2. Hunter Recruitment - why are we taking an activity that is rooted in relationships and challenge, and attempting to make it easy?

3. Prison System - Is it okay to utilize prisoners? How do we decide on their opportunities? Should all prisoners have to pay “restitution” to society for any negative effects? Why can’t we research purposes and utilize prisoners for more conservation efforts? If I was in prison, I’d want to get out in the woods and make a difference.

4. Pittman Robertson Act - Are there effective appropriation, checks, and balances in place for situations like this?

I have my ideas, but I like to listen first.
 

OntarioHunter

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They are not funding prisons. They are funding a sportsman program using the prison system. Do you suggest they raise the pheasants using regular staff at $20/ hour vs the 5$/day they are paying the prisoners?

The kids already shoot clay pigeons and eat all the pizza they can eat before they go to the field so theirs no need for any of that, just wasting more sportsman dollars.

How can horsehair weaving be translated to plumbing and carpentry? raising pheasants is much more applicable to farming and raising livestock then horsehair weaving is to plumbing and carpentry.

Its not guaranteeing the kid gets the pheasant, but it is setting them up to have a more enjoyable day. You may enjoy wandering around a field for hours on end, but a 10 year old kid who just graduated hunters safety does not. They want to shoot something, its called the 5 stages of a sportsman.
Have you priced agricultural land in Montana? So some guy gets out of prison and wants to get into agriculture. How's that work if he can't buy a farm? Okay, he can apply for the very limited number of ranch hand jobs ... with pheasant herder on his resume. Pffft! Experience throwing bird feed and shoveling chicken shit won't help him get a job doing anything except working in a commercial egg/chicken operation. So the ex con has to choose between working in one of those stinking plants or a life of crime. Well ... that would be a no brainer for me. I'd be looking for a gun to pay the bills instead of a scoop shovel and gas mask! Really? You actually worked in prison rehab? On this planet?

An ex con might show up at Montana Silversmith with a case of horsehair halters to show and I think he'd have a good chance of getting hired. That stuff is really something. Shows the ex con has patience, dedication, and ability to think way outside the box. Those are VERY useful attributes for plumbers and carpenters, especially finish carpenters (e.g. cabinetry). What attributes does taking care of a bunch of pheasants in a pen demonstrate?

If shooting something is so important to kids out of hunters ed, take them to the trap range. That's a real experience. Is what it is. Shooting pheasants tossed in the air with a machine isn't hunting by any stretch of the imagination. It's a joke.
 
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woods89

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Its not guaranteeing the kid gets the pheasant, but it is setting them up to have a more enjoyable day. You may enjoy wandering around a field for hours on end, but a 10 year old kid who just graduated hunters safety does not. They want to shoot something, its called the 5 stages of a sportsman.
I have 4 kids, and they sometimes want to eat junk food, don't want to go to school, and don't want to help around the house. Letting them have what they want does not necessarily put them on the road to being a functional human being.

According to the accepted wisdom of many people, my dad did many things wrong. Yet he didn't push us away from hunting. I'd argue something was started on those cold, snowy days following 2 Golden Retrievers around, and not killing very many birds, that has kept us engaged as time went on.

If we follow this line of reasoning further of making things easy, we should start every kid out at a game farm in a 20 acre pen, because they want to shoot something.

Lastly, I want to make sure I'm clear, I'm not saying you are a bad person, and I believe your heart to be in a good place, but I do disagree with the method.
 

Gellar

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I have 4 kids, and they sometimes want to eat junk food, don't want to go to school, and don't want to help around the house. Letting them have what they want does not necessarily put them on the road to being a functional human being.

According to the accepted wisdom of many people, my dad did many things wrong. Yet he didn't push us away from hunting. I'd argue something was started on those cold, snowy days following 2 Golden Retrievers around, and not killing very many birds, that has kept us engaged as time went on.

If we follow this line of reasoning further of making things easy, we should start every kid out at a game farm in a 20 acre pen, because they want to shoot something.

Lastly, I want to make sure I'm clear, I'm not saying you are a bad person, and I believe your heart to be in a good place, but I do disagree with the method.
I’m taking a bunch of 4th graders fishing this week that most have never fished before. Should I give them all baitcasters and 2lb musky lures to cast or should I give them a zebco and a worm?

There is a time and place to go on a suffer fest and not get a shot at a bird for days on end. The kids still have to walk behind the dog, follow safety measures and make an accurate shot at a flying bird. For the kids that participate in my program it’s not the time for a suffer fest. These kids don’t have a mom or a dad who will take them out hunting next weekend or the weekend after that. For the kids in my program this is probably there only shot and I bet I have a lot better chance of getting one of these kids to want to go hunting again by helping him/her be successful than dragging them on a death march not even seeing a bird. If you don’t like the program, don’t participate.
 

woods89

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I’m taking a bunch of 4th graders fishing this week that most have never fished before. Should I give them all baitcasters and 2lb musky lures to cast or should I give them a zebco and a worm?

There is a time and place to go on a suffer fest and not get a shot at a bird for days on end. The kids still have to walk behind the dog, follow safety measures and make an accurate shot at a flying bird. For the kids that participate in my program it’s not the time for a suffer fest. These kids don’t have a mom or a dad who will take them out hunting next weekend or the weekend after that. For the kids in my program this is probably there only shot and I bet I have a lot better chance of getting one of these kids to want to go hunting again by helping him/her be successful than dragging them on a death march not even seeing a bird. If you don’t like the program, don’t participate.
Yeah, it's true that neither extreme is the answer. I just wonder how many of those kids will actually make the jump from pen raised pheasants to walking fields all day for a few wild flushing birds. I see a lot of people go to all ends to "help" their kids hunt, and then it seems like the kids hunt until it's time for them to strike out on their own, and then lack the motivation to continue on their own.

So no, by all means let them use a spin cast with a bobber and worm. But don't put stocker trout in a big swimming pool and let them fish in it. ( Don't laugh, they do this occasionally at the Bass Pro headquarters in Springfield, MO.)
 

Dust Rider

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We almost never got shots on any species growing up. We were young, inexperienced and learning about the environment the animals lived. We got to be outside and spending time with dad. Some days sucked. Some were great. Nobody planted any birds for us, we had to find them. My brother and I still hunt, I still hunt a lot. A bird hucking thrower does sound fun after a few beers…
 

Gerald Martin

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Except that in this case it’s not Muskie lures and 10,000 casts vs bluegills on a worm and bobber.

It’s more like spending $15 per 9” hatchery trout on power bait instead of a tossing a panther martin for native smallmouth bass.

We have plenty of wild pheasants to pursue in MT. We could have even more if this money went towards habitat.

Short term gratification of “success” and “opportunity” instead of bettering a wild resource that can deliver greater returns is wasteful and short sighted.

Have the prisoners raise those birds for slaughter and sell to restaurants and boutique grocery stores and subsidize the program from the general fund.

Convert the grow and stock pheasant program into habitat improvement.

Everyone wins and 50 years from now the results of planting shrubs and windbreaks will still be producing birds.
 

BuzzH

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I’m taking a bunch of 4th graders fishing this week that most have never fished before. Should I give them all baitcasters and 2lb musky lures to cast or should I give them a zebco and a worm?

There is a time and place to go on a suffer fest and not get a shot at a bird for days on end. The kids still have to walk behind the dog, follow safety measures and make an accurate shot at a flying bird. For the kids that participate in my program it’s not the time for a suffer fest. These kids don’t have a mom or a dad who will take them out hunting next weekend or the weekend after that. For the kids in my program this is probably there only shot and I bet I have a lot better chance of getting one of these kids to want to go hunting again by helping him/her be successful than dragging them on a death march not even seeing a bird. If you don’t like the program, don’t participate.
If kids think walking around in the outdoors actually hunting wild birds is a sufferfest, they aren't ever going to become hunters.

I have an idea, if you want these kind of programs, then YOU find a way to fund them with private funds.

I don't want my license money to fund this kind of crap.

Take them to a private shooting reserve and pay for it out of your pocket.
 

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