A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides

BuzzH

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I can't speak for others but here is my problem statement.

First, every day, with guns or not, millions of Americans struggle with unmet mental health needs. Not only these millions suffer, but a large multiple of these millions in the form of spouses, parents, kids, friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc also suffer alongside them. Americans can't seem to quit squabbling about far less compelling issues and petty politics long enough to meaningfully address.

Second, some urban areas and some rural areas have lost most social cohesion and any semblance of hope. This drives a concentration of gangs, drugs and associated violence Economic opportunity is the only viable path out of this mess. But again, neither side seems willing to do the hard work beyond virtue signaling.

But once or twice a year an active shooter brings mental health to the headlines, as does skyrocketing gang violence in major cities. So, I would like to use society's obsession/fascination with these "black swans" to move on broader mental health and economic development initiatives. To bring some supporters along, a mixed bag of gun control tweaks (some a little tighter, some a little looser) might help push the discussion forward since public pressure to do "something about guns" is a powerful political motivator.
Mic drop...

Unless this is addressed, just keep building caskets as nothing will change.
 

RobG

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50 state firearms carry, no NFA bullchit for suppressors and barrel length, a push to enforce and prosecute existing laws, a funding mechanism for mental health upgrades, federal pre-emption to stop the CA/MA battle to be the most regulated states, and several others above.
I'm surprised you propose eliminating the NFA and FAFs. I'd say the the way they treat machine guns, suppressors, and barrel length is the model that should be followed. The reason the machine guns, silencers, etc aren't used in these mass shootings is that they are hard to get so only serious people buy them. The same thing would be true of the high capacity semi-autos and their magazines. Right now they are treated like toys that any idiot can buy.

The cat may be out of the bag on these, but I think the concept is sound and we definitely shouldn't be going backwards on this by removing stuff. Imagine if the guy was using a suppressor and subsonic ammo. It would take much longer to track him down.
 

wllm

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I’m not particularly religious myself and I don’t believe morality can be legislatd, but it seems if there’s a pretty strong push in this country towards an intentional immoral, valueless, type of degeneracy and it is pushed by the side of the political spectrum that wants to see gun control in response to violence.
I can’t help but imagine that gender wokeism, racism, two years of fake paranoia, social isolation and masking of children, intentional destruction of the nuclear family, etc. is making anything better. These problems certainly aren’t caused by two parent households, promoting traditional, Christian values, hard work and decency.
Maybe your kid doesn’t need seven pharmaceuticals. Maybe he just needs to go split some firewood, and for his dad to beat his ass for lying and for his mom to make a nice dinner, for the family to all sit down and have together.
If someone’s daughter aspires to be a tik tok influencer making slutty dance videos or an only fans “model”, instead of an electrical engineer or (gasp) a stay at home mom/wife, perhaps that’s a sign that somewhere things went a bit off the rails.
🤷‍♂️
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Addicting

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That is a really good point. Ask media? Strongly encourage? Not sure how to accomplish it, but it would help.
@mtmiller

You can’t swear on TV without a FCC violation and fine. Why can’t the same be done for identifying and showing the shooter?

Both could be argued that they violate the 1st amendment, how is one any different than the other?
 

MTGomer

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I'm surprised you propose eliminating the NFA and FAFs. I'd say the the way they treat machine guns, suppressors, and barrel length is the model that should be followed. The reason the machine guns, silencers, etc aren't used in these mass shootings is that they are hard to get so only serious people buy them. The same thing would be true of the high capacity semi-autos and their magazines. Right now they are treated like toys that any idiot can buy.

The cat may be out of the bag on these, but I think the concept is sound and we definitely shouldn't be going backwards on this by removing stuff. Imagine if the guy was using a suppressor and subsonic ammo. It would take much longer to track him down.


A suppressor is a hearing protection device and nothing more. They are loosely regulated in many countries with extremely strict gun laws. I think there may be some where they’re even required on many areas.

You should be able to buy them next to the ear plugs.
 

wllm

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No need for this discussion then.
I trying to say that’s a complicated ball of wax.

I do think there is some shifting baseline going on, with media making it seem like things are really bad current when depending on how you look at it they are in fact very very good.

Also some glorification of the past… 80s awesome or a terrifying time of serial killers?
 

Shangobango

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I offer the following as appropriate in my mind for a hunting forum given the important role firearms have in hunting, the overlap between hunters and broader "shooting enthusiasts", and my faith in the broad judgment and experience of the HT community. Please keep this civil and please avoid generic anti-Dem/anti-GOP tropes.

I am a 2A proponent consistent with the boundaries of Heller. That being, a person has a 2A right to bear arms for, among other reasons, personal protection. At the same time, like every one of the rights guaranteed under our Constitution, certain carefully crafted regulation is possible.

As such, I grow weary of one side repackaging their wish list as "common sense", and equally grow weary of the other side pointing out all the social ills that are the "real root of violence" but then not funding any programs to address those ills.

In my view, "common-sense" legislation implicitly requires some degree of compromise - a move by both sides to the middle. So, while I know there are folks that will pan each and every idea I suggest below, I do believe if enacted together they could make a meaningful difference in gun violence and suicide while minimizing the overall net effects on the vast majority of gun owners.

----
These are in no particular order
  • Universal Background Checks for all transfers, sales or conveyances - the only exceptions are (i) for parent to child in presence of parent, (ii) parent to child for hunting where both are participants, (iii) hunting/shooting partner/instructor to partner/student at range or when hunting and (iv) to/from FFL holder
  • If after three days the check is not cleared, it can be extended an additional 30 days, but if the individual is eventually cleared, the govt will give them a 25% rebate on the purchase price for the 30 day hassle/delay
  • The Fed govt will continue to invest in improved background check databases and functionality
  • A fully funded and staffed system for timely restoration of firearms rights for anyone who has not committed a crime where they shot another person and is otherwise deemed safe/rehabilitated

  • Self-made firearms may not be made by any person who is inelligible to purchase under the Universal Background Check criterea
  • Self-made firearms may not be sold/transferred/conveyed to any other person without proper serialization

  • Fed funds provided to states/local govt for law enforcement, prisons, and emergency medical services will be subject to active enforcement, prosecution and sentencing of existing firearms laws.

  • Federal red flag system using due process standards similar to civil commitment with timely and reliable return of firearms after the situation no longer supports continued "committment" status
  • Strong criminal penalties for misuse of red flag system by those initiating the action

  • NFA rules around SBR/shotgun length/supressors/etc are gone - a firearm is a firearm, size, shape, and color have no impact on regulation other than a continued minimum metal requirement

  • Fully automatic firearms (FAF) are illegal for any person other than military in course of duties
  • Current lawful NFA stamp owners have two years to surrender or render inoperable a current FAF - confirmation of such will generate refund of $200 tax stamp fee and $1,000 for weapon value
  • Parts used to assist a non-FAF to perform without independent, discrete and intentional trigger pulls are illegal - bump stocks, forced reset triggers, Glock full auto sear, etc,

  • Federal pre-emption for all licensing, permiting, safety and other regulation of firearms

  • No state/local/federal firearm registration database

  • Continued immunity for firearm/ammo manufacturers/sellers/gunsmith for actions by users provided they are FFL compliant - but they remain liable for manufacturing defects/etc

  • Some type of reasonable safe storage requirement when lawful owner is not present

  • Banks, credit card companies, and internet companies operating under the Section 230 safe harbor may not discriminate against firearms/ammo manufacturers/sellers/users

  • A national carry permit (not just concealed) - basic training class + simple range test + background check - renewed every 10 years - this would be offered in addition to whatever state permits are provided

  • The federal govt will regulate marijuana in the same manner it regulates alcohol

  • The federal govt will grant clemency and expungement for all marijuana convictions

  • The federal govt will provide additional economic development grants to states that also grant clemency and expungement for all marijuana convictions

  • All sales of alcohol, marijuana, firearms, ammunition, ammunition reloading supplies, and firearm accessories will be subject to a nationwide 5% sales tax
  • All profits of social media companies with more than 1 million users in the US shall be subject to a 10% surcharge
  • All current federal funds allocated to marijuana enforcement will be carried over to this new fund
  • All sales of illegal drugs will be taxed via a 25% income tax surcharge to be collected by the IRS (I know there will be little collected, but heck it got Capone ;))
  • These cumulative funds would then be matched dollar for dollar by federal general funds
  • 50% of these funds will go improvement of mental health services/systems nationwide, including suicide prevention programs
  • 50% of these funds will go to high gun violence zip codes to fund additional economic development, mental health, education and police services in equal measure

Thanks for posting this. Great jumping off point for a conversation that needs to be had.

Universal Background Checks for all transfers, sales or conveyances - not a huge fan of this one. I take issue with the government being involved in transactions involving constitutionally protected private property. The usual response to this is "well, what about cars?". The right to own a car is not constitutionally protected. On the flipside to this, a better system of background checks is obviously needed and I would rather have very stringent background checks than licensing of firearms, licensing of firearms being a complete non-starter for me.


A fully funded and staffed system for timely restoration of firearms rights for anyone who has not committed a crime where they shot another person and is otherwise deemed safe/rehabilitated- I get the premise but I think this should be better spelled out so that more violent crimes that do not involve a firearm and things such as armed robbery continue to disqualify one from owning a firearm legally.


Fully automatic firearms (FAF) are illegal for any person other than military in course of duties. Current lawful NFA stamp owners have two years to surrender or render inoperable a current FAF - confirmation of such will generate refund of $200 tax stamp fee and $1,000 for weapon value -
I am not sure I see the value in these. Care to elaborate? How many violent crimes and shootings are a result of FAF's? As someone whose understanding of 2A's purpose includes a defense against a tyrannical government , I think that this is counterproductive to the intent of 2A as I understand it. However, I do concede that this is not a complete deal breaker type issue, I am just not sure I see the value.

I absolutely support the points below:

The federal govt will regulate marijuana in the same manner it regulates alcohol

The federal govt will grant clemency and expungement for all marijuana convictions

The federal govt will provide additional economic development grants to states that also grant clemency and expungement for all marijuana convictions

All sales of alcohol, marijuana, firearms, ammunition, ammunition reloading supplies, and firearm accessories will be subject to a nationwide 5% sales tax
All profits of social media companies with more than 1 million users in the US shall be subject to a 10% surcharge
All current federal funds allocated to marijuana enforcement will be carried over to this new fund
All sales of illegal drugs will be taxed via a 25% income tax surcharge to be collected by the IRS (I know there will be little collected, but heck it got Capone
These cumulative funds would then be matched dollar for dollar by federal general funds
50% of these funds will go improvement of mental health services/systems nationwide, including suicide prevention programs
50% of these funds will go to high gun violence zip codes to fund additional economic development, mental health, education and police services in equal measure
 

woods89

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Oct 27, 2021
Messages
207
I can't speak for others but here is my problem statement.

First, every day, with guns or not, millions of Americans struggle with unmet mental health needs. Not only these millions suffer, but a large multiple of these millions in the form of spouses, parents, kids, friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc also suffer alongside them. Americans can't seem to quit squabbling about far less compelling issues and petty politics long enough to meaningfully address.

Second, some urban areas and some rural areas have lost most social cohesion and any semblance of hope. This drives a concentration of gangs, drugs and associated violence. Economic opportunity is the only viable path out of this mess. But again, neither side seems willing to do the hard work beyond virtue signaling.

But once or twice a year an active shooter brings mental health to the headlines, as does skyrocketing gang violence in major cities. So, I would like to use society's obsession/fascination with these "black swans" to move on broader mental health and economic development initiatives. To bring some supporters along, a mixed bag of gun control tweaks (some a little tighter, some a little looser) might help push the discussion forward since public pressure to do "something about guns" is a powerful political motivator.
All good points.
The problem, as I see it, is that society as a whole really doesn't care. Not saying some people don't at all, but as a whole. Violence against children does still push a spasmodic response for a few days, but most people will be on to the next thing in 2 weeks.
Most people's response to inner city problems is just to not go there. Most people's response to mental health issues is to hold those affected at arms length.
Like has been pointed out, as horrific as they are, mass shootings are not what's killing the most people in the gun violence realm. Why don't those suicide numbers provoke more action?
Maybe I'm just too cynical......
 

BuzzH

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Nowhere did I say it is just that. But, there is no debate to be had about whether or not the part you bolded has decreased mental stability among people whose brains are still forming.

If that was true how did kids from rural communities with very little contact outside their direct family ever have mental stability when their brains were still forming?
 

runningmt

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All good points.
The problem, as I see it, is that society as a whole really doesn't care. Not saying some people don't at all, but as a whole. Violence against children does still push a spasmodic response for a few days, but most people will be on to the next thing in 2 weeks.
Most people's response to inner city problems is just to not go there. Most people's response to mental health issues is to hold those affected at arms length.
Like has been pointed out, as horrific as they are, mass shootings are not what's killing the most people in the gun violence realm. Why don't those suicide numbers provoke more action?
Maybe I'm just too cynical......
I think you’ve hit it on the head. We as a country have little concern with anyone but ourselves. We have no appetite for the taxes that would be required to help people who are in need.

Doing nothing is not acceptable, but it really is what we are doing…..nothing.
 

schmalts

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I don’t think anyone has all the answers to our nationwide mental health crisis, but it’s damn sure we are overdue in trying to figure some of it out. This is much bigger than just the few dozen killed by active shooters - or even the few thousand who choose firearms for suicide. This is about literally tens of millions suffering from on-going mental health challenges - a very small percentage of whom will pick up a weapon and use it to horrible effect.
I could care less about any gun law changes because the root cause of these killings has nothing to do with guns. You don't blame beer when a little kid is hit by a drunk driver. You don't blame knives when a kid is stabbed to death. You don't blame Ford escapes when that POS mowed down and killed many at the Waukesha Christmas parade this winter, you don't blame pressure cookers when the Boston Marathon assholes killed and maimed so many. But one person of the dozens shot or killed every night in Chicago?? GUN VIOLENCE. Mass shootings? GUN VIOLENCE People need to take a class called root cause analysis. Would taking away guns lower the killings with guns? Sure, but will it fix the real problems that are the true cause of why people are choosing the easy tool to commit an evil act, not one bit. I would rather fix the root cause, because it will lower all weapon type murder rates, all suicided rates, and not infringe on the very important second amendment that places like Ukraine and Syria sure wish they had among other events in history. Every time something like this happens people who really just hate guns use it as a platform to go after guns rather than the root cause. Bigger questions, how about why any school is in a condition where someone with guns can drive up, walk in the back door and start shooting away? Why not scream about making laws to secure schools? We can send 52 BILLION to another country in a heartbeat but can't spend a tiny fraction of that $$ instead to secure our schools and enforce laws here? I'm sorry, I am not interested in any gun laws until the bigger fish are fried. The anti gun crowd refuses to have any armed teachers, armed security, or police at schools. They live in a world where they think if you fly a peace sign flag or coexist all bad people like Putin will just go away. Ain't happening. People are getting less respectful of other humans, lives, laws, and law enforcement.
 
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VikingsGuy

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You don't blame beer when a little kid is hit by a drunk driver.
Maybe not conversationally, but legally alcohol is highly regulated - age limits, vendor licensing, time place and manner restrictions etc. (and historically there was prohibition)

you don't blame pressure cookers when the Boston Marathon assholes killed and maimed so many.
While not pressure cookers, post OK City we have a lot more regulation and reporting around fertilizer purchases.
 

A207X2

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Yeah. Just throw more guns in the mix. Fix gun violence by making it more accessible. Are you listening to yourself?
Yes, I am listening to myself. My question to you is: Do you even understand the purpose of the 2nd Amendment, and why it was written the way it is? Your statement below makes me tend to believe that you don't.
No one has any logical need for a weapon that can rapid fire twenty rounds (or more!) without loading. There is only one purpose for those guns and that is designated military or law enforcement.
Again, you need to understand the 2nd Amendment. Here's an example:

10 U.S. Code § 246 - Militia: composition and classes

(a)The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b)The classes of the militia are—
(1)
the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2)
the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

So here is the militia that the 2nd Amendment refers to. There are two classes of militia, Organized and Unorganized. Every US citizen between the ages of 17 and 45 fall into one of these two classes.

"A well regulated militia"... As written in the late 18th century "well regulated" was understood to mean "well supplied", that is to say had modern weaponry and equipment at his disposal. That definition has not changed. That means high capacity magazines, along with the most popular sporting rifle in America. "being necessary for the security of a free state"... This was to ensure that there was recourse to an oppressive government - such as what we endured during the American Revolution. The founding fathers wanted to make sure that the people were never allowed to be subjected to a government that oppress the people by taking away their weapons (see: "The Shot Heard Round The World"), "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". Again, see "The Shot Heard Round The World".

So, back to my "common sense" gun violence ideas, I have a very good understanding of what I'm saying. I want every criminal to wake up in the morning thinking "Is today going to be the last day of my life? Am I going to mug the wrong guy, otherwise known as THEY GOOD GUY WITH A GUN?". They will no longer have their soft targets such as these ridiculous "Gun Free Zones" to prey on. And if they do still feel the urge to try and harm, injure, or kill someone they better think twice because if they are caught and convicted - they're off the planet. AND I'M FINE WITH THAT. Why wouldn't you be?
 
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HONEYBADGER

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I would bet money that at some time in this kids life his mental health was questioned at least once and due to the difficulties involved in getting him help or people complacency to get him help it was ignored.

I would bet money that at some time in this kids life his mental health was questioned at least once and due to the difficulties involved in getting him help or people complacency to get him help it was ignored.
It was, he was contacted by local police regarding mental health concerns. The outcome is obvious now, but the need for forced mental health care in today's world is obvious.
 

88man

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> enforce our current gun laws
> schools need armed security
> total ban on violent "shoot-em up style video games"
> the illegal depicted use of firearms in movies should be viewed the same as violent sex and the film should receive a mature RRR/xxx type rating and revenue taxed at 10%
> total ban on music where the lyrics include violent gun crime or misuse of firearms
 
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