A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides

Hammsolo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2020
Messages
895
I wasn't asking what you do for a living we all know your a teacher, I'm asking what as a teacher are you going to do/ want to do to prevent school shootings.

That’s what I do. I educate kids. Teachers don’t just teach science, math or whatever. I teach our country’s kids to be respectful citizens. I hold them accountable for their actions and hold them to a high standard. It’s preventative. How we educate out children makes a huge difference. Do we teach them to respect one another? Do we find a way to value and support every kid?

Schools shootings start long before the act. Healthy kids in emotionally, mentally and physically stable Environments don’t commit school shootings. Every week I’m working with kids to get mental health support, a place to sleep or eat, or deal with abuse. I don’t know the last time I worked my contracted day.

I get training every year on how to prevent and deal with shootings. I follow protocols and work on my own to grow as essentially a mental health counselor.

I work with them outside of school. I take kids from school hunting, mountain biking, fishing, hiking and more on my own time that don’t have father figures.

What do you do for a living? What are you doing to prevent these shootings? This is a wholistic societal problem. It takes a village.
 

Hammsolo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2020
Messages
895
Allowing teachers to defend themselves forces nothing upon them. Denying them their constitutional right to bear arms forces them to be human shields. There are teachers that want to carry.
Do you believe that had the teachers in Uvalde been armed that their panic would have resulted in more than 21 deaths? I don’t.

I don’t want to be in a school with teachers that “want to carry.” I am open to being in a school with highly trained personal that carry that aren’t teachers. Teachers aren’t supposed to be in that role. My district has 1 armed officer for around 3000 kids. Maybe we should find 1 officer per building? I’m not sure I’d want that, but I’m open to the conversation.
 

nick87

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2014
Messages
6,518
Location
Northern Illinois
That’s what I do. I educate kids. Teachers don’t just teach science, math or whatever. I teach our country’s kids to be respectful citizens. I hold them accountable for their actions and hold them to a high standard. It’s preventative. How we educate out children makes a huge difference. Do we teach them to respect one another? Do we find a way to value and support every kid?

Schools shootings start long before the act. Healthy kids in emotionally, mentally and physically stable Environments don’t commit school shootings. Every week I’m working with kids to get mental health support, a place to sleep or eat, or deal with abuse. I don’t know the last time I worked my contracted day.

I get training every year on how to prevent and deal with shootings. I follow protocols and work on my own to grow as essentially a mental health counselor.

I work with them outside of school. I take kids from school hunting, mountain biking, fishing, hiking and more on my own time that don’t have father figures.

What do you do for a living? What are you doing to prevent these shootings? This is a wholistic societal problem. It takes a village.
Yah your a teacher I got that, several times over. All I was asking is from an insiders point of view what you feel as a teacher is the best step possible in the school's. Maybe the way I posted my question came off wrong? That's why I said serious question. Don't start a measuring contest volunteer work with kids in the outdoors or mentoring just because some of us don't post all of that up doesn't mean it's not happening.
 

Hammsolo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2020
Messages
895
Yah your a teacher I got that, several times over. All I was asking is from an insiders point of view what you feel as a teacher is the best step possible in the school's. Maybe the way I posted my question came off wrong? That's why I said serious question. Don't start a measuring contest volunteer work with kids in the outdoors or mentoring just because some of us don't post all of that up doesn't mean it's not happening.

I answered your questions as I understood them. You started it technically. It wasn’t a 🍆 📏 contest. I think I get where you’re going now. Thanks.

I think the first step is to educate the whole child and family from day 1. Focus on the whole student starting in Pre-school, and this includes their family. Invest resources to teach parents how to raise children mentally, physically and emotionally. Provide a monthly meeting/class where parents can come together for learning and support.

Each school must have a minimum of 1 full-time counselor and security officer that is trained to work with and educate students through their role. They must be an intertwined in the system as a specialized educator.

Legislation was recently passed to provide 1 student per 250 kids. This doesn’t provide a counselor per most elementary schools. Our counselor is split between schools and we get him for 2 hours a day.

These would be monstrous improvements.

We must answer the question of why kids are doing this, and not just what to do when they start shooting. That isn’t my expertise.
 

ImBillT

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
3,059
Allowing teachers to defend themselves forces nothing upon them. Denying them their constitutional right to bear arms forces them to be human shields. There are teachers that want to carry.


I don’t want to be in a school with teachers that “want to carry.” I am open to being in a school with highly trained personal that carry that aren’t teachers. Teachers aren’t supposed to be in that role. My district has 1 armed officer for around 3000 kids. Maybe we should find 1 officer per building? I’m not sure I’d want that, but I’m open to the conversation.
I think you should have 5-10 officers per building(one officer per building is almost always gonna save himself and claim he was protecting more students by not confronting the gunman. Has there ever been a school or college shooting where one officer confronted the gunman in a reasonable timeframe?) BUT I think whether a teacher wants to exercise their constitutional right to bear arms isn’t your business, AND would be of more benefit than detriment. There are districts all over TX with teachers carrying in school. It’s left up to the district. I wish the district that my wife works at allowed it. No, she wouldn’t carry, but some of her friends would.

No, teachers aren’t supposed to be in that role, but when a monster comes into their room with a gun, there are only three roles, defend with a gun, defend with your body, and cower. I didn’t choose those options for the teacher, the monster did. You are advocating that teachers should not have the right to fight back with more than books and chairs.

You do you, but I’d rather my son or daughter died while a teacher was defending them with a gun and trying to save them, than while their teacher was hoping that after the gunman killed her, he would just ignore the kids she had been holding, all while the cops outside debated how to make sure they got home safely that night.

I’m very pro law enforcement, but there isn’t one LEO on the planet that cares as much about my children as I do, and there are very few if any, that care about students in a classroom that they’ve never met as much as the teacher. You know that. You care about your students. You never want to be put in that position. I could be wrong, but I’m betting that if you hear gunfire in your building your first thought won’t be “dang I’m glad I don’t have a gun. I would probably just make things worse. I hope he comes in here and all I can do is hope that my body block a couple bullets before he moves on to the children”.
 
Last edited:

nick87

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2014
Messages
6,518
Location
Northern Illinois
I answered your questions as I understood them. You started it technically. It wasn’t a 🍆 📏 contest. I think I get where you’re going now. Thanks.

I think the first step is to educate the whole child and family from day 1. Focus on the whole student starting in Pre-school, and this includes their family. Invest resources to teach parents how to raise children mentally, physically and emotionally. Provide a monthly meeting/class where parents can come together for learning and support.

Each school must have a minimum of 1 full-time counselor and security officer that is trained to work with and educate students through their role. They must be an intertwined in the system as a specialized educator.

Legislation was recently passed to provide 1 student per 250 kids. This doesn’t provide a counselor per most elementary schools. Our counselor is split between schools and we get him for 2 hours a day.

These would be monstrous improvements.

We must answer the question of why kids are doing this, and not just what to do when they start shooting. That isn’t my expertise.
Yah I agree those would both be huge steps. I also think you need to answer both of those questions until it comes to an end. One is no good without the other for the foreseeable future. For the record I didn't start anything I asked what you were gonna do, you know as an teacher. You went off beating your chest on being an educator twice. 🤷‍♂️
 

Hammsolo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2020
Messages
895
I think you should have 5-10 officers per building, BUT I think whether a teacher wants to exercise their constitutional right to bear arms isn’t your business, AND would be of more benefit than detriment. There are districts all over TX with teachers carrying in school. It’s left up to the district. I wish the district that my wife works at allowed it. No, she wouldn’t carry, but some of her friends would.

What’s the standard of training? I have worked with 1 teacher I can think of that had adequate training. He’s a marine war veteran.

Again, I’m open to a conversation around a highly trained officer in my school.

I can think of a few I’d quit my job over. I’ve worked with teachers that were mentally ill, violent, and more. I worked with a teacher that punched a kid and got fired. He lost it and thought he was in the right. Yes, the kid was disrespectful, but the teacher was also a known a-hole by staff and students.

There was a recent video all over the internet of a veteran teacher following a middle schooler out of class, spinning him around and dropping him.
 

Hammsolo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2020
Messages
895
Yah I agree those would both be huge steps. I also think you need to answer both of those questions until it comes to an end. One is no good without the other for the foreseeable future. For the record I didn't start anything I asked what you were gonna do, you know as an teacher. You went off beating your chest on being an educator twice. 🤷‍♂️

I answered. I literally told you what I do, and am going to continue doing. I’m not upset.
 

ImBillT

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
3,059
What’s the standard of training? I have worked with 1 teacher I can think of that had adequate training. He’s a marine war veteran.

Again, I’m open to a conversation around a highly trained officer in my school.

I can think of a few I’d quit my job over. I’ve worked with teachers that were mentally ill, violent, and more. I worked with a teacher that punched a kid and got fired. He lost it and thought he was in the right. Yes, the kid was disrespectful, but the teacher was also a known a-hole by staff and students.

There was a recent video all over the internet of a veteran teacher following a middle schooler out of class, spinning him around and dropping him.
I don’t think any teachers that don’t currently take a gun to a school to kill kids would suddenly do so when having a gun at school was legal. No standard.

TX currently has no standard of training that I’m aware of. Districts that allow it have their own standards.

Do you honestly believe the teacher who lost it would have shot the kid if he’d been allowed to carry? I’m totally open to districts allowing high ranking staff to keep certain people off the allowed list for legitimate reasons. I’m slightly open to districts that don’t want all staff to be eligible to carry, to instead have 5-10 armed “officers” as an alternative.
 
Last edited:

Hunting Wife

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
3,096
Location
Almost North Dakota, not quite Canada
It seems like way too many folks want one-sentence solutions for encyclopedic problems - I can say it isn't surprising, as this is how we got here. It is also that way for every other issue facing the nation - a series of predictable pre-packaged one-sentence dismissives used to cut off any nuanced discussions. It does get tiring.

Ever listen to Jocko’s podcasts about cognitive bias? This thread is an interesting window into the human mind.

I could get on board with many of the suggestions floated here. The original list seems pretty pragmatic.

Don’t remember who brought up the classes of firearms with varying levels of regulation. Intriguing idea I had never heard or thought of before. I could also get on board with a federal opt-in license and skip the transaction-based background check system we have now. The main benefit I get from my concealed permit is to avoid that whole hassle.

Living in a society where every school has its doors locked and has armed guards stationed, doesn't sound much like freedom to me.
Sounds like incarceration to me also. Not sure why so many view this as a long term solution. It’s a bandaid and solves nothing.

Strange how many self proclaimed freedom lovers are willing to basically lock up innocent folks “to keep them safe” rather than accept any level of even minor inconvenience to purchase or own a firearm. The freedom argument loses a lot of credibility with me when I see those types of suggestions. They strike me as incredibly callous and selfish. I also struggle with the incongruent arguments that we can’t trust teachers to provide instruction about sex, race, religion, or history but we should trust them to be armed in a classroom with children every day?

I think our society’s fundamental unwillingness to empathize or compromise is just as much a root cause of these continued occurrences as anything else.
 

Hammsolo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2020
Messages
895
I don’t think any teachers that don’t currently take a gun to a school to kill kids would suddenly do so when having a gun at school was legal. No standard.

TX currently has no standard of training that I’m aware of. Districts that allow it have their own standards.

Do you honestly believe the teacher who lost it would have shot the kid if he’d been allowed to carry? I’m totally open to districts allowing high ranking staff to keep certain people off the allowed list for legitimate reasons. I’m slightly open to districts that don’t want all staff to be eligible to carry, to instead have 5-10 armed “officers” as an alternative.

I appreciate your willingness to chat. It’s terrifying to think, but I don’t think the guy would deck a kid either. Weird stuff happens. I pray it never will, but it does.

I laugh thinking about, we will call her Barb, carrying a side arm. I also shudder. She’s 5’2”, 64, and riddled with injuries. She was a great teacher, but is burned out. She’s awesome until she loses her crap. She’s retiring this year, thank God.
 

Irishman

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2017
Messages
176
Location
Kalispell, Montana
Agree but do You have kids? I feel better with the security at my kid’s school than if it wasn’t there. At some point we have to make an effort not to worry about protecting some idealized world that doesn’t exist, and probably never did. I had armed LEOs at my high school in the 80’s. So not exactly a new phenomenon.
I had 4 sons that went to school in NW Montana, but they had the feeling that their resident school cop's agenda had nothing to do with protecting them. I grew up in Northern Ireland in the 70's, where there were bombs going off, and lots of shootings, but there was never any danger of being killed at school. If you had an assault rifle, you were either in the military, a policeman, or in a paramilitary organization with illegal weapons.
 

VikingsGuy

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 2, 2017
Messages
8,912
Location
Twin Cities
Yah I agree those would both be huge steps. I also think you need to answer both of those questions until it comes to an end. One is no good without the other for the foreseeable future. For the record I didn't start anything I asked what you were gonna do, you know as an teacher. You went off beating your chest on being an educator twice. 🤷‍♂️
He has answered you twice and you have failed to answer him twice. Pretty obvious who is discussing and who is badgering.
 

ImBillT

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
3,059
I appreciate your willingness to chat. It’s terrifying to think, but I don’t think the guy would deck a kid either. Weird stuff happens. I pray it never will, but it does.

I laugh thinking about, we will call her Barb, carrying a side arm. I also shudder. She’s 5’2”, 64, and riddled with injuries. She was a great teacher, but is burned out. She’s awesome until she loses her crap. She’s retiring this year, thank God.
Well, I’m open to go back and forth as my time permits on the merits and detriments of school staff being armed vs unarmed, but I’ve engaged in answering some flawed statements and questions. I had a more direct answer to some of your statements typed, but I decided they weren’t exactly addressing what I thought was important.

You don’t speak for all teachers. My wife, and some of her coworkers are of the opposite opinion. Some of you your coworkers are almost certainly of the opposite opinion. You might even be surprised how many would tell you honestly vs how many would tell you what they thought was more accepted, as my wife was surprised at who was in favor of staff carrying when her district loosely discussed it, AND how many people preceded their comments to her with “don’t tell anyone I said this but”. She was particularly surprised with how told her that they carried outside of work(some of which had been raped or stalked in the past). The same went for how many fellow teachers told her they voted for Trump by the way(apparently also taboo among teachers even in red states) My wife isn’t outspoken, but she doesn’t hide her opinions either and she is often surprised how many of her coworkers tell her how they feel about things after they tell her not to tell anyone they said it.


Next up, your concern SEEMS(and I may be wrong) to be primarily about something that I’m not sure has ever happened, or if it has happened is quite rare. You’re concerned that if teachers had guns, they would start shooting students or other teachers. I’m not aware of an incident where a teacher(or other school staff member) has brought a gun to school grounds and killed someone. Now frankly, I don’t see how that could be possible, and have to assume that it has in fact happened. Even if it has happened, I have to assume that it is far more rare than school shootings by people who are not school staff. So, is your fear of school staff suddenly becoming murderous once they possess guns on school grounds really a good reason to prevent school staff from having the means to defend themselves from something that has happened OVER AND OVER AND OVER, and which law enforcement has been WOEFULLY INADEQUATE TO RESPOND TO? Go ahead and show me the stats that school staff have murdered more students than non-staff. Currently staff isn’t supposed to be armed in almost all schools, and currently non-staff has successfully murdered students more times than I have fingers, and law enforcement has been almost worthless. Your method isn’t working.

I have never carried on my person, while outside my vehicle, the property I lived on, or my hotel room(but I have pointed a loaded firearm at two living human beings that I could lay eyes on, and twice have taken a firearm in search of people I never found but that I believed were outside my home or my neighbors home. There are police reports on three of those incidents and police were pointing guns at me on one of them. It’s funny how slowly cops show up when you call and say your truck is being broken into vs how fast they show up when your roommate calls and says “my roommate is confronting burglars with a gun”). I have considered carrying on my person, and think it might be wise to start. My wife doesn’t plan to carry. I still think it should be an option for school staff, and I would 100% be more comfortable knowing that my children had teachers carrying than knowing that they didn’t. My children attend a daycare with an employee who carries, and I’m glad that’s the case.
 
Last edited:

QuazyQuinton

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
397
Location
Western Oregon
Well, I’m open to go back and forth as my time permits on the merits and detriments of school staff being armed vs unarmed, but I’ve engaged in answering some flawed statements and questions. I had a more direct answer to some of your statements typed, but I decided they weren’t exactly addressing what I thought was important.

You don’t speak for all teachers. My wife, and some of her coworkers are of the opposite opinion. Some of you your coworkers are almost certainly of the opposite opinion. You might even be surprised how many would tell you honestly vs how many would tell you what they thought was more accepted, as my wife was surprised at who was in favor of staff carrying when her district loosely discussed it, AND how many people preceded their comments to her with “don’t tell anyone I said this but”. She was particularly surprised with how told her that they carried outside of work(some of which had been raped or stalked in the past). The same went for how many fellow teachers told her they voted for Trump by the way(apparently also taboo among teachers even in red states) My wife isn’t outspoken, but she doesn’t hide her opinions either and she is often surprised how many of her coworkers tell her how they feel about things after they tell her not to tell anyone they said it.


Next up, your concern SEEMS(and I may be wrong) to be primarily about something that I’m not sure has ever happened, or if it has happened is quite rare. You’re concerned that if teachers had guns, they would start shooting students or other teachers. I’m not aware of an incident where a teacher(or other school staff member) has brought a gun to school grounds and killed someone. Now frankly, I don’t see how that could be possible, and have to assume that it has in fact happened. Even if it has happened, I have to assume that it is far more rare than school shootings by people who are not school staff. So, is your fear of school staff suddenly becoming murderous once they possess guns on school grounds really a good reason to prevent school staff from having the means to defend themselves from something that has happened OVER AND OVER AND OVER, and which law enforcement has been WOEFULLY INADEQUATE TO RESPOND TO? Go ahead and show me the stats that school staff have murdered more students than non-staff. Currently staff isn’t supposed to be armed in almost all schools, and currently non-staff has successfully murdered students more times than I have fingers, and law enforcement has been almost worthless. Your method isn’t working.

I have never carried on my person, while outside my vehicle, the property I lived on, or my hotel room(but I have pointed a loaded firearm at two living human beings that I could lay eyes on, and twice have taken a firearm in search of people I never found but that I believed were outside my home or my neighbors home. There are police reports on three of those incidents and police were pointing guns at me on one of them. It’s funny how slowly cops show up when you call and say your truck is being broken into vs how fast they show up when your roommate calls and says “my roommate is confronting burglars with a gun”). I have considered carrying on my person, and think it might be wise to start. My wife doesn’t plan to carry. I still think it should be an option for school staff, and I would 100% be more comfortable knowing that my children had teachers carrying than knowing that they didn’t. My children attend a daycare with an employee who carries, and I’m glad that’s the case.

I don't think @Hammsolo is so worried about teachers going postal on their students as he is that in a high-stress school shooter situation, a teacher may or may not respond in a rational manner. Think about the dumb stuff people do when confronted with a big buck while hunting, and that's not even a life or death situation. How do you think it would go over if there was a school shooting situation (or a perceived shooter situation) and a teacher killed a student?

QQ
 

Hammsolo

Well-known member
Joined
May 16, 2020
Messages
895
Well, I’m open to go back and forth as my time permits on the merits and detriments of school staff being armed vs unarmed, but I’ve engaged in answering some flawed statements and questions. I had a more direct answer to some of your statements typed, but I decided they weren’t exactly addressing what I thought was important.

You don’t speak for all teachers. My wife, and some of her coworkers are of the opposite opinion. Some of you your coworkers are almost certainly of the opposite opinion. You might even be surprised how many would tell you honestly vs how many would tell you what they thought was more accepted, as my wife was surprised at who was in favor of staff carrying when her district loosely discussed it, AND how many people preceded their comments to her with “don’t tell anyone I said this but”. She was particularly surprised with how told her that they carried outside of work(some of which had been raped or stalked in the past). The same went for how many fellow teachers told her they voted for Trump by the way(apparently also taboo among teachers even in red states) My wife isn’t outspoken, but she doesn’t hide her opinions either and she is often surprised how many of her coworkers tell her how they feel about things after they tell her not to tell anyone they said it.


Next up, your concern SEEMS(and I may be wrong) to be primarily about something that I’m not sure has ever happened, or if it has happened is quite rare. You’re concerned that if teachers had guns, they would start shooting students or other teachers. I’m not aware of an incident where a teacher(or other school staff member) has brought a gun to school grounds and killed someone. Now frankly, I don’t see how that could be possible, and have to assume that it has in fact happened. Even if it has happened, I have to assume that it is far more rare than school shootings by people who are not school staff. So, is your fear of school staff suddenly becoming murderous once they possess guns on school grounds really a good reason to prevent school staff from having the means to defend themselves from something that has happened OVER AND OVER AND OVER, and which law enforcement has been WOEFULLY INADEQUATE TO RESPOND TO? Go ahead and show me the stats that school staff have murdered more students than non-staff. Currently staff isn’t supposed to be armed in almost all schools, and currently non-staff has successfully murdered students more times than I have fingers, and law enforcement has been almost worthless. Your method isn’t working.

I have never carried on my person, while outside my vehicle, the property I lived on, or my hotel room(but I have pointed a loaded firearm at two living human beings that I could lay eyes on, and twice have taken a firearm in search of people I never found but that I believed were outside my home or my neighbors home. There are police reports on three of those incidents and police were pointing guns at me on one of them. It’s funny how slowly cops show up when you call and say your truck is being broken into vs how fast they show up when your roommate calls and says “my roommate is confronting burglars with a gun”). I have considered carrying on my person, and think it might be wise to start. My wife doesn’t plan to carry. I still think it should be an option for school staff, and I would 100% be more comfortable knowing that my children had teachers carrying than knowing that they didn’t. My children attend a daycare with an employee who carries, and I’m glad that’s the case.

Please don’t twist my words. I didn’t say most of what you said, “especially staff becoming murderous.” I am anything but afraid. Your statements are full of assumptions, and a tiny sample size.

I am not anti-trained handlers in school. I don’t believe untrained staff should be carrying in school. I think we should make informed decisions.

We have to get in front of the problem too. The carriers will not prevent what is leading to the shootings.

This isn’t a political issue.
 

Shangobango

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 5, 2019
Messages
1,602
Location
Louisiana
Allowing teachers to defend themselves forces nothing upon them. Denying them their constitutional right to bear arms forces them to be human shields. There are teachers that want to carry.

Do you believe that had the teachers in Uvalde been armed that their panic would have resulted in more than 21 deaths? I don’t.

This broadly sums up the issue as a whole for me.

Self determination/responsibility for oneself and the community vs. let the authorities be responsible.
 

Randi

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 4, 2019
Messages
546
This isn’t a political issue.
I believe it is AND I believe it is some of the problem


2450 people on death row... of about ~1,400,000-1,900,000 people in prison (depends on how you define it)


The redline is the war on drugs.
View attachment 223813
View attachment 223814
Thank you. This willl be used today

I think our society’s fundamental unwillingness to empathize or compromise is just as much a root cause of these continued occurrences as anything else.
I certainly agree with this. There seems to be less and less "middle ground", especially in Wash D.C. and IMHO there is plenty of blame for this on both sides of the aisle.
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
100,950
Messages
1,604,811
Members
31,632
Latest member
Sand Meadows
Top