Yeti

A "common sense" proposal that will piss off both sides

WBouldin

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Great thread @VikingsGuy (hope you are doing well)

The problem is binary so the solution must be as well. We have crazy people and we have guns. Both parts of those issues need to be addressed and most like to focus on the one thing that is not "their" problem - that will never work.

Stop making arguments for mental health programs at the hands of the government and then turning around to pull the 2A infringement argument. If you are advocating for others to have their mental health infringed on by the government, your 2A rights get it too.

Stop making arguments that gun control is the solution and thats why people do these things. The gun doesn't fire itself and each of these attacks takes a monster to think it, plan it, and execute it.

We need to do a better job of screening/caring/rehabbing those with mental health issues, we also need to make it more difficult for folks to get access to guns they do not need / should not have.

Please also stop with the "this only affects law abiding citizens" - it affects all of us and it should.

These guys were all law abiding citizens*** when they obtained their guns....and then they weren't:
Adam XXXXX > Sandy Hook
Nikolas XXXX > Parkland
Stephen XXXXXX > Las Vegas
Salvador XXXXX > Uvalde
Just to semi-name a few....

*** satisfied the state/federal requirements to buy a gun
 

WBouldin

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In the killings in Buffalo, the grocery store had an armed security guard. He engaged the killer. His pistol was not up to the task of taking out a killer suited in body armor, carrying a semiautomatic rifle. That man was the shooter's first victim.
This exact scenario in the North Hollywood Shootout is what lead the LAPD to get semi-auto rifles. Their 9mm pistols were no match for the bank robbers armor and AKs.

Based on most of these attacks, you would need a SWAT outfitted officer on campus at all times to level the playing field. I remember in Parkland their resource officer didn't engage the shooter (allegedly - he's under trial) because he knew he was outgunned.
 

ImBillT

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I don't think I said that. It would be helpful if you tried not to assume things that I don't post.

I don't buy the good guy with a gun stops a bad guy with a gun argument. Because it depends, on the circumstances. In the last two shootings both killers showed up with a semiautomatic rifle while wearing some sort of body armor. A teacher with a semiautomatic pistol tucked into a holster, with their mind on teaching students does not have the odds stacked favorably when a killer clothed in body armor bursts through the door with their rifle ready to kill. Not only is she or he slower on the draw, they are seriously outgunned.

In the killings in Buffalo, the grocery store had an armed security guard. He engaged the killer. His pistol was not up to the task of taking out a killer suited in body armor, carrying a semiautomatic rifle. That man was the shooter's first victim.
You assumed all all sorts of things in your posts. You said that most teachers aren’t “gun cranks”. Hmm. What does that have to do with anything? You don’t have to be a gun crank to defend yourself. You have to want to defend yourself, learn some gun safety, and practice at the range. You darn sure don’t have to be a “gun crank” to like the idea of your “gun crank” co-worker being armed so that your entire building isn’t a soft target.

I don’t believe that putting a gun in a teachers hands will make her invincible. I do believe that there’s a good chance that at least one of the dead teachers with students in their arms(got reported in Uvalde, and it’s been reported in prior shootings) at least wished they’d had some option other than to be a human shield(and they had the courage to be a human shield). Now what right do you have to take that right away from that teacher? Who cares if they’re outgunned? If they would rather have a gun, it’s their constitutional right to have it, and it shouldn’t be taken away because some people get warm fuzzies from knowing a teacher doesn’t have the option to defend his/herself.

Are cops doing a better job? It would be hard to argue that sitting outside for an hour and cuffing one parent while pepper spraying another(still not sure it’s true, but it’s been reported) is saving more children than just letting a teacher arm his/herself IF THEY WANT.
 
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longbow51

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While a tiny bit off topic, don't LEOs, particularly ones close to the border, as in Uvalde, have vests and ARs in their patrol rigs?
 

ImBillT

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This exact scenario in the North Hollywood Shootout is what lead the LAPD to get semi-auto rifles. Their 9mm pistols were no match for the bank robbers armor and AKs.

Based on most of these attacks, you would need a SWAT outfitted officer on campus at all times to level the playing field. I remember in Parkland their resource officer didn't engage the shooter (allegedly - he's under trial) because he knew he was outgunned.
The playing field doesn’t have to be level to improve outcomes. It just has to be better.

And frankly I’m not convinced that a SWAT outfitted officer would engage if wasn’t face to face with the shooter. Is that better than no officer at all? YES LETS PUT ARMED OFFICERS IN ALL SCHOOLS! I still think the teachers should have the choice.

One of the employees at my child’s daycare carries. I’m glad. Numerous people at my church carry, and take turns on “door duty”. I’m glad. I wish teachers had the option.
 
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I am not thinking this as leading gun control, I am viewing as trading a few items to get a few items. I would trade Universal Background Checks for killing most of NFA in a heartbeat.

I agree mental health/economic is more important and bigger driver, but to move things everybody in DC needs a win and everybody takes some loss.
While your points are all well made and a lot of thought went into this post, it's a completely moot point. Your second paragraph above isn't reality regarding the second amendment and gun ownership. It hasn't been for over 50 years. Right up there with amnesty & illegal aliens. Neither party can compromise on the only things they can actually express any difference towards during EVERY election year!

Reagan agreed to a one time amnesty for a guarantee of securing the border. Thirty-six years later that other half of the "trade" has never happened. Go back and look at what has historically happened in Washington, DC. One side, ALWAYS THE SAME DAMN SIDE, offers a trade to get something passed to "help all people". Immediately upon signing the "compromise" bill, the OTHER SIDE, reneges on their half of the bill and pushes again for the rest of their nonstop agenda items. The moment you begin to waste the time to create a list of compromises is the exact moment when you've begun losing all of your associated rights. There is not one example of politicians or gun haters EVER truly compromising regarding the second amendment. Every compromise turns out to become simply a pause for more fundraising before beginning again.

I value your 1st amendment right. I will never relinquish my 2nd amendment right to anyone.

There are hundreds more restrictions on gun ownership throughout this country than on car ownership. Cars kill and maim literally thousands more people every year than guns. Medical malpractice kills even more every year. Evil is evil. There is no law written by man or God that has ever stopped evil. Have I written some obviously worn out clichés? Sure, but that doesn't make them less factual.
 

ImBillT

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There are a lot of reasons for the 2A and for firearm ownership, I am not making any argument to say that firearms or even a class of firearms should be illegal.

But countries with less firearms per capita have way fewer gun homicides. There have been knife, bomb, truck etc attacks in those countries, but it’s not even close to the same scale.
I don’t think guns are the only variable at play when you go from country to country.

I do think that if every school employee that wanted to carry was allowed to carry that the average number of students killed in school shootings would go down.
 

Hammsolo

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I am so fed up with school shootings and all the damn games around them.

We’re stuck, and kids are paying the price. Some of us focus on ourselves and our reality. Some think everyone is like us. Some of us play blame games all in the name of winning. Some of us speak in absolutes and slam our gavel. Some of us refuse to accept that mental illness is prominent, and must be managed. Some think that people just need to pull it together. I could rant more, but I’m sick of this.

I’m angry with EVERYONE that is unwilling to look at all sides, study them, and seek actual solutions.
I don’t have the answers, but I’m willing to come to the table. We have had multiple threats at school this year. Many of the best teachers are sick of it and walking away. Kids are scared. What will you do? I don’t give two shiz about what you won’t do.
 

neffa3

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The absolute last thing I want to do is ask a teacher to anything but teach. I'm not asked to process water rights and shoot people. Shooting someone should be a task that is a sole responsibility. You shouldn't be teaching about the Civil war, planning lessons, grading tests, and training how to kill someone.

Not only am I not going to ask them, I'm not going to let them volunteer, because too much rides on them not taking on more than they can chew. Killing someone is not target practice, and while every cowboy thinks they have what it takes, I'm not willing to put my kids in a situation where maybe they panic and make it worse.
 

HandgunHunter

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Some facts came out today in the press brief from the police.

A TEACHER propped open a locked door to the outside of the school which the shooter used to enter.

That mistake right there let the shooter get ahead of the police.

That’s completely complacent and the teacher that made that decision ultimately allowed uncontrolled access to the building.

This engagement could have happened outside.

Is the crazy person who did this to blame? Absolutely.

Is that teacher to blame? Absolutely.

Those metal security doors with wire re enforced glass windows take a bit of time to get through with the best tools.

As stated in my previous post…. Complacency kills….or so I have been taught in previous jobs.
 

longbow51

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The absolute last thing I want to do is ask a teacher to anything but teach. I'm not asked to process water rights and shoot people. Shooting someone should be a task that is a sole responsibility. You shouldn't be teaching about the Civil war, planning lessons, grading tests, and training how to kill someone.

Not only am I not going to ask them, I'm not going to let them volunteer, because too much rides on them not taking on more than they can chew. Killing someone is not target practice, and while every cowboy thinks they have what it takes, I'm not willing to put my kids in a situation where maybe they panic and make it worse.
I'm mixed on this. I have a friend who teaches, loves his kids and has been shooting since he was 6. Started shooting my .44 when he was 12, which I recently passed on to him. Has a Sig M 17 with which he is deadly. Shoots thousands of rounds a year. If someone enters his room with a gun intent on killing his kids, how could he make it worse? What exactly is worse than watching someone pick off your kids one by one?

There should be stringent requirements to carry as a teacher, and I would even include courses such as those attended by SWAT teams. Some taught by former SEALs.

Anyway, I think we may be circling the drain here.

Excellent thread VG.

Vaya con dios.
 

elkduds

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CO Springs.
.

I value your 1st amendment right. I will never relinquish my 2nd amendment right to anyone.

There are hundreds more restrictions on gun ownership throughout this country than on car ownership.
Did you mean that following restrictions does not relinquish 2A rights? If so I agree.
 

neffa3

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I'm mixed on this. I have a friend who teaches, loves his kids and has been shooting since he was 6. Started shooting my .44 when he was 12, which I recently passed on to him. Has a Sig M 17 with which he is deadly. Shoots thousands of rounds a year. If someone enters his room with a gun intent on killing his kids, how could he make it worse? What exactly is worse than watching someone pick off your kids one by one?
Because unless you train for it, the stress of actually killing someone, especially when there's a severe threat to people you love, can do things to you you'd never guess. Not everything is as Hollywood, or our egos would lead us to believe.

The only time I've every been in a high stress situation I did the exact opposite of my training and definitely made the situation worse. Hell, I can hardly remember the situation at all, I mostly just blacked out.
 

HandgunHunter

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Because unless you train for it, the stress of actually killing someone, especially when there's a severe threat to people you love, can do things to you you'd never guess. Not everything is as Hollywood, or our egos would lead us to believe.

The only time I've every been in a high stress situation I did the exact opposite of my training and definitely made the situation worse. Hell, I can hardly remember the situation at all, I mostly just blacked out.
Everyone’s different.

Have seen it in young Marines in combat and Law enforcement.

It would come down to a personal choice.

Frankly…after my LE time….a lot of LE isn’t cut out to use force either.

It would have to come down to each and every individuals personal choice if the option was given.

You can take the most hardened veteran and find a situation that will make them break. But it was their choice to be there…and each individuals should make that choice. Not politicians who have no clue.
 

neffa3

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Everyone’s different.

Have seen it in young Marines in combat and Law enforcement.

It would come down to a personal choice.

Frankly…after my LE time….a lot of LE isn’t cut out to use force either.

It would have to come down to each and every individuals personal choice if the option was given.

You can take the most hardened veteran and find a situation that will make them break. But it was their choice to be there…and each individuals should make that choice. Not politicians who have no clue.
Sure. But in both your examples that was their primary job. None of those people are also asked to effectively teach the conservation of mass to 7th graders as their primary job.
 

HandgunHunter

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Sure. But in both your examples that was their primary job. None of those people are also asked to effectively teach the conservation of mass to 7th graders as their primary job.
Well….a cop has about 7,000 hats to wear on a job……

Some of those Marines didn’t have a primary job as a trigger puller…..some drive trucks, used a keyboard, or a spoon….and just had some basic marksmanship training once a year.
 

DouglasR

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Some facts came out today in the press brief from the police.

A TEACHER propped open a locked door to the outside of the school which the shooter used to enter.

That mistake right there let the shooter get ahead of the police.

That’s completely complacent and the teacher that made that decision ultimately allowed uncontrolled access to the building.

This engagement could have happened outside.

Is the crazy person who did this to blame? Absolutely.

Is that teacher to blame? Absolutely.

Those metal security doors with wire re enforced glass windows take a bit of time to get through with the best tools.

As stated in my previous post…. Complacency kills….or so I have been taught in previous jobs.
Thank you for your service.
I think you might have a distorted perception of reality because of your previous jobs.
Or maybe I have a distorted sense of safety because of people like you willing to provide me with it.
Either way, I don’t think a teacher who propped a door open is in any way to blame.
Propping open a door is not a crime.
#victimblaming
 

nick87

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I am so fed up with school shootings and all the damn games around them.

We’re stuck, and kids are paying the price. Some of us focus on ourselves and our reality. Some think everyone is like us. Some of us play blame games all in the name of winning. Some of us speak in absolutes and slam our gavel. Some of us refuse to accept that mental illness is prominent, and must be managed. Some think that people just need to pull it together. I could rant more, but I’m sick of this.

I’m angry with EVERYONE that is unwilling to look at all sides, study them, and seek actual solutions.
I don’t have the answers, but I’m willing to come to the table. We have had multiple threats at school this year. Many of the best teachers are sick of it and walking away. Kids are scared. What will you do? I don’t give two shiz about what you won’t do.
What are you gonna do?

Serious question
 

HandgunHunter

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Thank you for your service.
I think you might have a distorted perception of reality because of your previous jobs.
Or maybe I have a distorted sense of safety because of people like you willing to provide me with it.
Either way, I don’t think a teacher who propped a door open is in any way to blame.
Propping open a door is not a crime.
#victimblaming
It’s not victim blaming.

Your tax money paid for the security at the school. Example the locked doors, metal doors, and so on.

For multiple decades now it has been standard practice to teach school staff basic principles of controlling school access.

Public access is via the main entrance at most schools.

By failing to follow that very basic training it allowed for a failure in the security of the building.

We would hold people accountable in many other professions for such a act of complacency.

This is no different.

Is that teacher at fault for the crime. No

Is that teacher at fault for failing to follow a basic safety protocol that made the crime easier to commit. Yes

Failure to follow “safety protocols” in other professions has consequences.
 
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